this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2023
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Your value is not determined by your productivity. (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 year ago by inasaba@lemmy.ml to c/simpleliving@lemmy.ml
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In a capitalist world, it can be hard to remember this. But despite what you are pressured to think, your value as a person does not come through what material value you create for others.

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[–] Kindymycin@lemmy.one 37 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I find the current tone of the comments in this thread rather upsetting. It feels like a lot of people are arguing to refute OPs position that a person's value is not determined from their material productivity. If this is you, I think you might be in the wrong community. I don't think this is a point of debate in the simple living community.

To say that a person's value is derived from their productivity is to say that you do not value the person, but what they produce. This can be interpreted as viewing a person as a Means to any End, rather than an End in themselves. For me, viewing people as Ends in themselves is a foundational pathos of Simple Living. The idea of valuing people, relationships, love, time, above wealth, material, prestige, speed is what simple living is all about!

Well wishes to you all 😊

[–] wildeaboutoskar@beehaw.org 14 points 1 year ago

"Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things.” Terry Pratchett

[–] inasaba@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago

Agreed, and it's a problem we need to nip in the bud before it becomes entrenched.

[–] insomniac_lemon@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would say the pushback is not about how it should be, but about how it works in reality. Paragons still struggle with bills or working/living conditions while grifters live comfortably. The disconnect makes the "you matter" stuff look like nothing more than a platitude. Maybe that take is cynical, but it's not without roots.

Particularly worse with all the systems in USA, I'd say it's much less likely to make individuals feel valued and thus less conducive to simple living. I say that as someone all-but-stranded (semi-rural) in a "this is fine" simple life (I've thought about living in an intentional community, but I don't ever see that working out for me).

[–] Kindymycin@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Thank you for your well put reply, and I agree, you position is not without roots. Though, I'd like to humbly suggest that your points may actually support the notion that runaway modern capitalism does not effectively determine a person's value. I would argue that the fact that a paragon can struggle economically and a grifter can swindle their way to high fortune shows that capitalism does not equitible reward good and punish evil. Therefore, a person should not allow their financial status (the value capitalism has assigned them) to be the measure of their personal value.

On the point of the system's undervaluing of people and their work (which is absolutely true) making it harder to lead a simple life, I'm not sure the two are connected. Being compensated well makes things much much easier, but that doesn't make things simpler. A person can live a very modest life that is simple, tranquil, and full of joy. Someone can also be extremely wealthy and ambitious with a fast paced life full of complexity, stress, and anguish.

I'm very sorry that youre feelings stuck. It's frustrating and it absolutely can feel patronizingly when you're struggling for better and someone tries to placate you with platitudes. But, the gift of simple living is that by appreciating the little things, removing stressful complexly, and slowing down, anyone in any situation can have more peace and happiness in their situation, even if it doesn't get better.

Warmest wishes my friend and be well.

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[–] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I wish I could believe that, but everyone in my life blatantly shows that they only appreciate me when I can do things for them and just tolerate me between useful events.

[–] natori@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sounds like you need some friends, friend. Those aren't them.

[–] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

You're right. I can count on one hand the people who I called friend for the sake of just being friends. Sadly, life eventually pulls us apart.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The people who decide whether I eat or starve disagree wholeheartedly with you.

[–] inasaba@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Capitalism doesn't set your value as a human being.

[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm not sure the phrase "value as a human being" even has meaning.

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[–] eskimofry@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

A lot of sociopaths propagate the lie that everyone in the world is as selfish and corrupt as they are. These people are the ones who are controlling capital. It's their incapability to be normal like everyone else that's responsible for their sociopathy and also their projection of values.

Don't be fooled, you're sane if you reject the capitalistic ideals. It's insane to make somebody else disproportionately wealthy with your hardwork and ideas.

[–] shlomek@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

... it is valued by how hard it is to replace you.

[–] natori@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's not even really that. Paris Hilton? As replaceable as the next individual human. Almost totally without any production or material value, yet loaded with worth. There are dozens of people like her. Or on a smaller scale, many mid-upper level managers are completely interchangeable and produce little to nothing, but are valued far more than someone working in a packing plant.

Worth and value have no correlation in our society. People who have money have it because they have money, not because they work harder or do more important things. Some people do have money and also work hard or do important things, sure, but it isn't correlated.

[–] inasaba@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

All individuals are irreplaceable.

[–] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

A nice sentiment, but not very helpful for navigating reality.

Long story short: You are valued by others based on how much value you create for others. Stated this way, it's a totally obvious conclusion that is possibly easy to forget.

And like another commenter already said, this is true regardless of your preferred economic world view and politics. It's a simple life lesson.

[–] inasaba@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can't replace a close friend with some random person. Individuals have value in them regardless of their ability to do labour, and they are not replaceable as individuals.

It's really sad how much buy-in there is to the dehumanization of people here.

[–] Didros@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Another interesting thought. "Dehumanization of people" sounds like the title of a dissertation, it has so much depth you could talk about.

My first thought is, "can you even dehumanize someone" because I've never recognized this feeling as having "the features of humanity denied to me" by someone and properly identified it.

Looking back I have for sure been dehumanized at work so many times I can't get close to counting them. And I don't think that anyone could go home to their parents house and have their mom be a totally different person without being confused at least.

It is only recently that I would consider my co-workers as not interchangeable. Lower paid high turn over positions you just don't get attached to people, or at least I don't. People come and go so fast, but there are some that I only worked with for a few weeks that I remember to this day. Never considered that value before.

[–] Kindymycin@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago

This perspective sounds like relationships are a transactional affair of reciprocy. I am very sorry if this has been your experience with people ☹️

[–] MossBear@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I know how much I'm valued as someone with a chronic illness which is to say, virtually not at all. In different times, even somewhat recent times, there are those who would simply prefer that I and others in similar circumstance be killed for our lack of utility.

There are other life lessons one can learn which are by far more valuable here.

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[–] freetirement@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's probably best to flip this on its head. Rather than thinking "others must value me regardless of my productivity"--something you have no control over--instead think "I must show others that I value them not based on any benefit to me". I.e. be the change you seek.

[–] Squidquid@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Agreed. Id take a step further even though. What one does for WORK to provide for themselves doesn't give them value either. For example, a doctor, paramedic or nurse can save a life in the course of their work which adds value to others and may provide purpose to the healthcare worker - but ultimately it's a dangerous trap to begin believing that this is inherently their value as humans. We all have a value by just existing, experiencing and interacting together. Our society has made it so that one of the questions we ask first is "what do you do for work?" Because we so often wrap up our profession in our identity and value

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