thank god trump one and so now the genocide is all over.
this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2024
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Thank goodness the Democrats perpetuated the genocide in Gaza so they wouldn't lose to Trump! π€¦
Yup. I don't understand why people are talking like Harris isn't also pro-genocide. Obviously more Americans are going to die under Trump and that's a tragedy too, but why are people pretending the election was about Palestine?
The election was never about Palestine, ultimately the Dems lost of their own volition by running rightward with Liz Cheney. Rather than going with a safe win like ending support for genocide and running on a progressive platform, or even a Leftist platform (which the DNC would never do, for the record, even if it would win), they deliberately chose to lose to the reps. Their donors would rather have Trump than progressive Dems win.
More Americans would die under Harris as well. The US Empire is crumbling, even if Harris won that wouldn't stop that process, what's necessary is for the working class to get organized.
Meanwhile, Palestine burns and the Dems got away scot-free.
No one forced the democrats to do this:
yeah its not like republicans tied ukraine aid to aid for israel or anything. /s
Maybe we shouldn't have supported Ukraine if it meant supporting genocide
The Democrats, in the eyes of liberals, can only be failed, they cannot fail of their own accord. Now, more than ever, is a good time to start reading theory, as many liberals are disaffected by the US election. I wrote an introductory reading list for Marxism in case anyone wants one.
This wasn't the Democrats being failed, it was the whole country being failed. It wasn't about voting for the Democrats, it was about voting against Donald Trump, and there was only one way to effectively do that. Everyone who refused to do that got exactly what they voted for with Trump, whatever ends up happening, but rather than accepting that maybe this was the worst option, they're just posting memes about how everyone didn't push back against the democrats hard enough, so I doubt it'll sink in.
Do you think continuing the slide into fascism as Capitalism continues to decay is a good thing? If not, how do you plan on stopping it?
The fact of the matter is that the Democrats ran to the right of Biden in 2020 and committed fully to genocide. They lost the support they had, and they lost enough to lose the popular vote as well as electoral college. This was a massive failure, and if your plan was simply to vote Dem and hope for the best, then it's clear that your plan A failed. What's your plan B?
Whatβs your plan B?
What's yours? Since letting Trump get elected was apparently Step 1, what's Step 2? Where are we going now? Come on, fill us in.
Or, alternately, stop putting words in other peoples' mouths and consider that what we have now is worse for everyone than the alternative would have been.
I didn't get Trump elected, lol. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't. The election isn't a part of any Leftist's plans.
The answer is revolution, as it always has been, and that starts with organizing. I've even made an introductory Marxist reading list that has gotten several people to read theory, and hopefully join Leftists in organizing. Yes, I did link it at the beginning of this convo, and no, you didn't click it, otherwise you'd know what my plan is because I spell it out.
What's your plan? Endlessly critique on Lemmy and blame voters for the failures of the DNC?
I didnβt get Trump elected, lol.
And this right here is our unresolvable ideological difference. You refuse to consider that by not voting for the better option, you're partially responsible for what we have now. Good luck with your revolution, I guess. We have nothing else to discuss.
You seem to be assuming that they didn't vote for no apparent reason.
I don't care if they did or didn't; I find them to be completely insufferable and have no desire to engage with them further.
What, exactly, is insufferable about me asking you what your plan is when you come attacking me of your own volition? It wasn't like I reached out to you, you whined and left when you couldn't articulate a point yet I could and did.
Your 'plan' is not a plan so much as a general set of vague guidelines. My 'plan', with the same degree of validity, is to (continue to) support my local community, work towards conversions to better voting systems, and try to weather the next four years while continuing to take a pragmatist's stance on political candidates.
What I find insufferable about you and the majority of the vocal folk who share your views are that you don't seem interested in actually having a conversation about your views. You're all quite ready to put words in other peoples' mouths and adopt a holier-than-thou attitude towards everyone, while not considering that many of us might share a lot of your views if you weren't so damn militant about everything. We probably have quite a lot in common, but painting everyone who isn't a marxist as a capitalist / fascist isn't helping your cause, not in the slightest.
This will be the last thing I say here, so feel free to get your last word in.
My plan is a plan, revolution has clear requirements and work do be done, organizations to be built and class awareness to be raised. I don't know what you mean by that as "guidelines."
Secondly, "supporting your community," while noble, is vague and shapeless. What does that look like? How do you work towards better voting systems, and how do you know they are sufficient to bring about change? Is this a situation where you just think really hard about something and hope it magically manifests, or is this a real, practical plan? These questions should all be able to be answered by you in a heartbeat, and if not, your plan does not have the same degree of validity. I encourage you to poke and prod at what I espouse. I also take what I believe to be a pragmatist's approach - after all, I believe what you advocate thus far is far too difficult to accomplish and far too little to accomplish much even if it did come to pass.
Thirdly, you claim I am not willing to have a conversation about my views. Since when? You can check my comment history, it is filled with meaningful conversation regarding the myriad nuances, complexities, difficulties, and strengths of Marxism. When were you willing to have a discussion? You opened a conversation where I said the Democrats failed to garner support with condemnation of my personal character, and refused to acknowledge my points on the necessity of working towards a practical solution rather than hoping the Democrats can win. Evidently, that still remains your tactic, because you only said "voting reform" is necessary.
I never once painted you as a Capitalist, you're likely a proletarian like most of us. I never once called you a fascist, either.
I do believe that if you took the advice I gave in the beginning, you'd likely agree with my reading list, and even become a Communist by the end of it. What I don't believe is that you're in a mindset to take that advice, nor do I believe you ever have been in this conversation. You opened it with personal attacks when I tried to direct the conversation towards practical actions, and I think that's because taking action scares you.
I hope you'll read theory, I do think you'd agree with it if you would be willing to do so, but I don't think you are, yet. If, on the off-chance you do decide, I'm open to answer any questions you might have. I don't know everything about Marxism, not by a long-shot, but I'm very confident in what I do talk about because I refrain from talking about what I don't know.
I said I wasn't going to reply again, and I'm going to mostly stick to that, but I do want to issue a self-correction for one thing.
I was reading this thread on an app that doesn't do a good job of differentiating different posters, and I was replying to a few different people and (incorrectly) attributing some of the more inflammatory things I was reading to you. Now that I'm looking at it on a PC, I can see that it was actually multiple people, so I apologize for that. Of the people I was replying to, you were the least objectionable, but we still have fundamental differences of opinion that we will not be able to resolve here.
I appreciate your apology, it does explain quite a few of what I percieved as erratic and irrational antagonisms. I will state that had you not come in, intentionally or not, by directly assaulting my character, I would have generally been far more charitable.
I know you said you don't wish to reply, and if not that's fine and I understand. However, given that we have clarified that the hostility in this conversation was based on a fundamental misunderstanding in tone and intent, why not talk about our ideas, like you said you wanted? We can start fresh.
What about our difference in opinion is so fundamental that we can't come to some level of agreement? Again, I'll state that, regardless of the actions of individual voters, whether or not these voters are mobilized in general depends most heavily on the campaigns run by the two parties. The changes in the 2024 Harris Campaign compared to the successful Biden 2020 campaign can at least be considered a large determining factor in the changes in voting sway, no?
Secondly, I do think it's important to analyze if voting reform would actually meaningfully change society, and if it's even feasible to achieve without revolution in the first place. Marxists have very good reasons to be revolutionary exclusively.
You don't know who I voted for, and it doesn't matter. I could have voted De La CrΓΊz, Stein, Oliver, Harris, Trump, any of them, and it would not have made a shred of difference, and unlike you, I have planned for that already. You still haven't told me your plan, so I guess I was right, it really is just to whine on Lemmy and blame voters for the tremendous and historic failure of the Democratic Party to connect even somewhat to the working masses and thus garner support.
In the future, when Capitalism has decayed further, you'll likely become radicalized and seek to understand this process, and I'll be right here.
Not letting Democrats run a Nazi candidate was step 1. Liberals failed that.
Should have pushed back like I did so Genocrats would have changed course before it was too late. Instead Blue MAGA condoned it all and silenced dissent.
This is the result of capitulating every demand because "But Trump".
Ironically "But Trump" is what got you Trump.
This type of rhetoric is why I and many others just cannot take you folks or your views seriously.
Everyone always talks like defeating Trump in the election is the end-all be-all of the disussion. Voting Democrat and preventing Trump from taking the white house should have been an obvious step. It is not the best outcome for the election, nor is it the end of the ongoing decay of late-stage capitalism into wealth-based fascism, but all this whataboutism and strawmanning Democrat voters as believing Kamala was going to single-handedly save democracy is disingenous. It was never "Plan A". It was one minor, marginally better compromise in the collective of shit we should be doing.
Voting Kamala failed. The Democrats failed to run a campaign that won. That is in the past. What I am saying is that voting Democrat did not work, so I am asking what their plan actually is, if voting Dem wasn't plan A then what is?
Leftists already have a plan that isn't contingent on winning a presidential election. Do liberals?
This wasn't the Democrats being failed
Correct.
it was the whole country being failed
Exactly, by the Democrats.
It wasn't about voting for the Democrats
Hence why people didn't vote for Democrats. They had no reason.
and there was only one way to effectively do that.
Do you think it was about voting democrats. You just think they should be able to do literally whatever they want, including genocide.
they're just posting memes about how everyone didn't push back against the democrats hard enough
More like they're posting about how the Democrats should have listened when we were posting the same things before ethe election, but you not only willfully ignored us, you distanced yourself. Now that it over and we were right, you're mad at the messenger.
f
You dropped that.
Jill Stein would have totally stopped the genocide you care about.
/s
You got your favorite tyrant in control January 21st. Be happy, you wanted this π€‘
The Democrats can only be failed, they can't fail, can they? If they lose, it's the fault of the masses, each individually, and not on the Party running the campaign and trying to connect to its base, is that right?
The fact of the matter is that Trump was more successful in getting his base to vote, and Harris went against her base by running to the right of Biden in 2020, despite polling telling her it would lead to electoral loss.
None of us individually made any difference, no matter who we voted, the ones with the ability to change the course of the election are the parties and candidates running for it.
No one cares about genocide. At least not in significant numbers.
You're right that's why Democrats need to support Genocide to win the election.