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This is why it's not mainstream (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 month ago by Lumisal@lemmy.world to c/linux@programming.dev

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It's the simple things really. I've swapped back to Linux as my primary about a year ago, and still I have issues I don't have with Windows.

6 months now, particularly on Linux Mint (Bazzite to its credit hasn't had this issue much) I just can't fit connect to the internet. Linux is the only thing with this issue. By some arcane lucky magic, it somehow fixes itself when I'm fiddling around trying to fix it myself.

Only for the problem to come back next time I boot up my PC on Mint.

I have it connected to a TP link switch, just like other devices. None have the issue, not even a console (Nintendo Switch). Months, fucking months of going through forum posts, articles, social media, and trying out dozens upon dozens of "solutions", both in gui and the terminal - and the problem persists.

Now, I don't think I'm tech savvy exactly, but I'm not tech illiterate either. I understand some simple lines of code, some very basics of networking, etc. I'm patient enough to deal with issues like these for over half a year.

But how the hell is Linux even going to dream of being anywhere near mainstream when one of the most recommended "beginner" distros can't even run a year long without something as simple as the damned internet working???

And it's not just the internet. It's little things that just pop up one day and now you have to solve a puzzle to figure it out. Oh, suddenly you have to print something? Oh, you decided to get a light up keyboard that was on sale? Try to use Steam Link? Get ready to roll the dice on whether it'll take you a weekend to do / use it.

Microsoft is shit. Windows, is shit. Windows 11 is a privacy goddamn nightmare.

But in the end of the day, it just fucking works, those damn bastards ensure that. And even when something doesn't work, it seems, for some unknown reason, most of the online solutions do fix the issue.

Now imagine someone who's less likely to open up a terminal using Linux. They won't. They'll sacrifice their privacy because they might have full time jobs in something not remotely tech related and just wanted to watch some YouTube and don't want to spend the little free time they have fixing their own computer.

What's hilarious is just as I'm finishing this rant, the internet on Mint just magically decided to work again with no issues.

Maybe next time then I'll try yelling at the Linux fairies in my PC to see if they'll do their magic. At this point it's about a valid solution as any other.

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[–] unknowing8343@discuss.tchncs.de 25 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Turns out that is your experience, and it cannot be extrapolated to the rest of the world.

In fact, my experience is actually opposite. Everytime I go back to Windows to do some task... Wi-Fi has trouble finding my access point, and when it finally connects (sometimes after having to reboot) the connection is simply not as strong. Oh, and some bullsh*t software got reinstalled and it even set itself up as launching-at-start-up, after I had to almost hack the OS to allow me to do that.

So, do I extrapolate to the rest of the world?

[–] Jesus_666@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

True. Just this weekend I spent far too much time trying to get a printer to work again on Windows after its IP address got changed. In the end Windows refused to talk to the printer unless I removed and then readded the device from the Settings app, which prompted a reinstallation of the device driver. No, just changing the IP address in the device settings wasn't enough; Windows insisted on the driver being reinstalled.

Linux didn't need reconfiguration; it just autodetected that the printer had moved.

I'm not saying that Linux is without issues, not by far. But Windows has never been terribly "it just works" for me either. The closest to "it just works" was (aptly) OS X somewhere around Snow Leopard.

[–] sxan@midwest.social 9 points 1 month ago

So, do I extrapolate to the rest of the world?

Yes. Also assume that anyone who disagrees with you is either insane or stupid. It's the modern human condition!

[–] Ziglin@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

Probably not but it's the exact same for me. If something doesn't work on Linux it takes me a few minutes to fix it (there have been a few rare exceptions) but the time I spend trying to get closed source software to work is infuriating and I usually just give up.

I recently tried compiling a rust project on a Windows computer that has special software to reset the PC after a reboot.

I had to download an executable installer from the cargo website. That installer then said I needed a (1.3GiB) Microsoft C++ Compiler which then required a reboot after it was installed??? Why???

[–] N0x0n@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago

Yep, same here ! But with this stupid MacOS ! Expensive as hell and they can't even get some basic networking tweaks right...

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

You're having a bad day and you're letting off steam - understandable.

Just yesterday a friend said "Fucking Linux, every time I hit Esc it opens some program" only to be followed up by "lol, my mic was standing on the Ctrl key!". Another friend was having issues with a bluetooth headset and thought for a while that it was linux. After much debugging, we found out the product was just defective and had tons of people complaining about connectivity issues on multiple platforms.

I'm not saying what you're experiencing doesn't exist, nor that it's a fault of your own. Sometimes software just doesn't work and it sucks. Sometimes it really is linux, sometimes it's something else. Once you've calmed down and taken a breather, do upload a hardware probe. I'm guessing something's fucky either with your driver or with the hardware itself.

Now imagine someone who’s less likely to open up a terminal using Linux. They won’t. They’ll sacrifice their privacy because they might have full time jobs in something not remotely tech related and just wanted to watch some YouTube and don’t want to spend the little free time they have fixing their own computer.

Yep, true. It's been a long-standing issue with linux and the opensource community. Sometimes it's due to lack of time, sometimes it's due to lack of interest, but I can bet you that most of the time it's due to lack of funding. Unfortunately, sometimes it due to elitism too ("I don't want lusers using my software"). Hopefully someday we'll get to a point where there's a bigger focus on non-technical users.
We've come a long way though. Back in the 00's we had to fiddle with ifconfig and friggin' /etc/network by hand. Things have gotten a lot better.

Anti Commercial-AI license

[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 month ago

Back in the 00’s we had to fiddle with ifconfig and friggin’ /etc/network by hand. Things have gotten a lot better.

I was just thinking that I've never had any problems with either WiFi or Ethernet connectivity since NetworkManager became a standard part of modern distros. Before that I was having to install windows drivers with ndiswrapper and configure interfaces manually in ifup and ifdown scripts, and I haven't had to do that for at least 15 years now.

[–] dgriffith@aussie.zone 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

Microsoft is shit. Windows, is shit. Windows 11 is a privacy goddamn nightmare.

But in the end of the day, it just fucking works, those damn bastards ensure that. And even when something doesn't work, it seems, for some unknown reason, most of the online solutions do fix the issue.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

(Pause for breath)

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Only if you count "most of the online solutions" as "run SFC /SCANNOW and if that doesn't work, just reinstall your OS".

[–] Kissaki@programming.dev 7 points 1 month ago

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

(Pause for breath)

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Was that tone really necessary? I would have liked your comment more without this part.

[–] sukhmel@programming.dev 4 points 1 month ago

Pretty much sums my experience with windows, something you want will either work fine, or be mysteriously broken beyond repair with no apparent reason. MacOS is like that sometimes, too. Linux is not perfect, but it usually allows for a fix to exist.

[–] Hammerheart@programming.dev 4 points 1 month ago

For real. The main reason I switched to linux was because I was getting into progamming, and when I had to troubleshoot something on windows it was like half a dozen arcane solutions which might work, but the linux solution to the same problem was a terminal one liner. Maybe I'd feel differently if I was afraid of the terminal, but that's one affliction I am blessedly free of.

[–] cloudless@lemmy.cafe 13 points 1 month ago (4 children)

You are going to get lots of downvotes, and this comment will too.

Linux on desktop has come a long way in usability, but it is still far behind Windows/Mac. It has lots of small issues that add up to a frustrating experience for mainstream users.

It is good for power users who don’t mind tweaking and going to the terminal.

It is ok for users who perform very simple tasks (e.g web browsing), and occasionally have the support from power users.

But for most people in between, it is a struggle. I dislike Windows and I have tried migrating to Linux many times, there is always something that requires unnecessary effort to make it work the way I need.

[–] Ooops@feddit.org 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It has lots of small issues that add up to a frustrating experience for mainstream users.

And 90%^(1)^ those are out of Linux' actual resposibility because they are caused by third parties screwing up... sometimes even intentional (from companies producing lackluster drivers only having a fix cobbled together for Windows specifically -looking at Realtek networking for example- to ones actually going out of their way to block Linux (MS FUD included...).

^(1)^ The other 10% exist on Windows or Mac also, but people just accept them because they are used to not having a chance to change it. Seriously the amount of obscure regedits or third party tools usually surpass the number of linux issues fixed by editing an easy to read txt file.

[–] Blaze@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 month ago

Upvoted, it's a fair assessment

[–] Kissaki@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago

You are going to get lots of downvotes, and this comment will too.

👀

[–] Lumisal@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Well at least someone here got the point

[–] Ziglin@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Almost sounds a bit like a hardware issue (apart from Bazzite working, though depending on how much time you've spent on it it might just be luck)

Also since you got to vent it's my turn now. Windows by no way just worked for me. Within a few months of installing it it managed to nuke its own bootloader which I had to fix by booting into it from a live USB. I think I probably just chose a bad card but my Graphics drivers were really finicky too, though Linux had that issue too until I started using flatpak versions.

[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

All I can think of is the time I had to give up Windows 10 because no matter what I tried, webpages would always take a few seconds to load on first connect. Like if I went to banana.com for the first time, it would take 3-4 seconds. If I went back a week later, it would be instant. But the same computer worked fine on Linux.

Basically my point is, yes your situation is crappy and you can go to Windows. But bugs like these for whatever arcane reason happen on MacOS and Windows too.

[–] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

probably just a badly supported network card/chip, have you considered getting a better supported one?

[–] ExperimentalGuy@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Linux doesn't always work. We know that. But it looks like you're misconstruing your specific issue with some broader argument for Linux being mainstream. The fact that you connected it to a switch tells me that youre already more advanced than the average user. I get you're annoyed, but you can also just ask about your specific issue.

[–] Lumisal@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'll figure it out eventually.

Just wanted to vent, but it's also frustrating because I really do wish Linux could be more widely adopted. But the tech heads here show why it won't be any time soon, even with Microsoft making a nightmare OS in terms of privacy.

[–] ExperimentalGuy@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Why do the tech heads show why it won't be adopted mainstream any time soon?

[–] Lumisal@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Just look at some of the comments.

A lot are still "the OS is great you're the issue" (nvm that clean installs sometimes have these issues) or "git gud scrub" or "just post some error logs" even though that gets a reply maybe half the time (which gets again into expecting something the average person wouldn't know how to do btw, which is a problem if you want better adoption) or "but Windoze does has problems111!".

The reality is that Linux still can't be stably used for a lot of standard things: new(and newish) hardware, printing, lack of good UI design in many programs, and to a degree gaming (it's been massively improved there though thanks to Proton).

Yeah, Windows has problems. But those arise more typically for advanced users (and that's including Windows 11 being more and more broken over time).

If you just want to browse the internet and use some office apps, with no dual booting, it'll just work. That's the reality of it, and it makes sense considering it's supported by a multi billion dollar company.

I know Linux for desktop has come a long way (I remember the Slackware days). But until the more boring stuff gets worked out, it'll still be hard for it to be used more commonly, and thus harder for it to get more funding and usage as well. That's why I think Linux is stuck in the 4% rut - sure it looks pretty now, but there's still a lot of under the hood tinkering required to just do basic things on standard hardware.

Despite the venting it's still a great thing it exists and I love Linux. But I think that's what makes me wish it could work better in some cases.

Idk, maybe it's just Debian based distros these days and I'm behind in the curve. Fedora based ones like Bazzite haven't given me issues so far at least.

[–] rostselmasch@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 month ago

You described a problem you have with an OS you use, which I fix every day at work. No Linux, just Windows. It is the most normal thing, that drivers might not work or the Hardware is faulty. We often have to change something, try different things and you don't need Linux to tinker around, the Windows environment offers enough opportunity to do so. And your problem sounds like a driver problem or maybe faulty hardware. It has nothing to do with Linux.

You definitely don't work in IT, otherwise you wouldn't mentioned printing. Printers are evil beings itself and these fuckers don't care wich OS you use, they just don't want to work properly. Hardware supports depends on the kernel. That's normal, Windows 7 also doesn't support newest hardware. There is still nothing specific Linux. Regarding UI: KDE Neon is great, try it.

Yeah, Windows has problems. But those arise more typically for advanced users (and that's including Windows 11 being more and more broken over time).

Would this be true, I probably would need to change my profession.

But until the more boring stuff gets worked out, it'll still be hard for it to be used more commonly, and thus harder for it to get more funding and usage as well.

Because of your ethernet problem? I understand that you are mad for the problems you have now, but I wouldn't use your experience with the ethernet NIC as a basis for the question how good all Linux distributions are usuable for everyday work.

Idk, maybe it's just Debian based distros these days and I'm behind in the curve. Fedora based ones like Bazzite haven't given me issues so far at least.

Look, drivers get updated or introduced in newer Linux kernels. You could decide which distribution you want to use depending on the kernel. amdgpu got fucked up since a specific release and my RX580 won't work if it loads, so I am still using an older kernel. In Windows the drivers crashes often sadly. You need to look how well a specific hardware works and then decide which kernel you should use. We always do this on work with Windows and it is really needed, because manufactures sometimes don't really care about there drivers and compatibility with newer Windows 10 versions or Windows 11.

This is probably also the reason why you got downvoted so much, because you describe a generic, OS independent problem and then you blame Linux kernel for it and all Linux distributions, while you are using a specific distribution named Linux Mint. If you replace Linux with Window in your rant, it would be the same way wrong. But I hope that your problem gets fixed. You are free to describe your problem in specific communities, they probably might find a solution with you together.

[–] BetterDev@programming.dev 4 points 1 month ago

Dang bro, how much did you pay for it? I'd try to get my money back if I were you.

[–] toasteecup@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

My Internet doesn't work, I've spent a shit ton of time trying to solve it but I'm not going to post any actual logs or error messages. I'm just going to complain about my unique issue.

Good luck. Enjoy whatever you end up using.

[–] ExperimentalGuy@programming.dev 4 points 1 month ago

[–] cheddar@programming.dev 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

tl;dr a skill issue

[–] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 14 points 1 month ago

☝ this is why Linux will never be mainstream

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago

Broadcom and Realtek NICs have given me loads of headaches over the years. If you can manage to swap them for Intel ones, they tend to work WAY more reliably.

[–] Sebbe@lemmy.sebbem.se 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I always get bad vibes when beginners talk about internet connectivity issues and are using a switch. You do have a router too, right?

[–] cloudless@lemmy.cafe 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

What’s wrong with using a switch?

[–] Ziglin@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

You need a router between your ISP and home network.

[–] Sebbe@lemmy.sebbem.se 2 points 1 month ago

Nothing but a lot of people who don't know what they're doing use them instead of routers or gateways. This gives their devices direct access to the internet which is a major security issue but it also means that they end up using all IP adresses that their ISP will provide. All new devices that try to connect will fail to get a new address. Then they go online and ask why their internet connection is shit.

[–] nokturne213@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 month ago

I was using mint on an older thinkpad, I could only connect to the internet with a wired connect. After months, I uninstalled the driver it insisted I needed for my WiFi card and went back to the generic. That fixed it.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

For me this is Bluetooth.

I very often have to restart the entire service to get it to recognize things, and sometimes it just seems "dead" only to just "fix itself" after a few minutes.

Macos and windows I never experience this

Anecdotal for sure.

[–] Hammerheart@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago

Sometimes the service freezes for me and cant be killed, requiring a restart.

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[–] MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

The sarcastic and rude responses to this post also show a major downside of Linux, asking for help with an issue on Linux often results in little actual help and lots of annoying responses.

[–] RiikkaTheIcePrincess@pawb.social 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Maybe constructive communication courses should be mandatory worldwide if something that amounts to "Your stupid OS doesn't work for me so it's never going to work for anyone [who isn't a nerd with infinite spare time to fix it all' the time]!" is how people think to ask for help.

My point being, this isn't a request for help. This is yet another nuisance post by someone who's come to punish "the Linux community" for some problem they had. It's unproductive, unamusing, inflammatory, and on top of all' that it's redundant: we get this crap often.

[–] hellofriend@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I wouldn't call it unproductive. We live in an era where things "just work," and when they don't then you end up with complications. Would a business switch to Linux if they see that network problems are a possibility? Maybe when they're looking to upgrade their hardware, but even then they'd have to get their IT department to research hardware that will "just work" with Linux. And after that, they need to find a commercial wholesaler to provide the kit or have the company custom build however many PCs themselves, just so they don't end up having financial losses due to failed network connections. Would they put Linux on their current hardware? Hell no. Windows is a known quantity and no business is going to risk losses by introducing a potentially risky operating system to their systems/workflow. It is good to point out the issues with the OS so that those issues can be fixed. It's good to hear the perspectives of the everyman if we want Linux to grow.

[–] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

how do you see complaints like this helping fix hardware support issues?

it's not like people don't know that wlan support on linux isn't great, or that nvidia drivers are bad, it's just that the community doesn't have enough resources to fix them.

if we want real fixes we need to either have the companies making these products start writing drivers for linux, or more volunteers writing drivers, neither of which sound like something that'll come soon.

[–] RiikkaTheIcePrincess@pawb.social 1 points 1 month ago

What a weird comment. What do IT departments do if everything "just works?" Also, this isn't a company. This is one random person saying Linux is bad for home users and always will be because they had one bad experience. Bug reports and actual requests for help are productive. "It didn't work for me so it's crap" is not. If some people having bad experiences doomed an OS then Windows would've died by now.

I'm literally asking people to prefer using us for tech support over dropping our nth rant this week about how Linux is crap because it upset them.

Also, we get every "it doesn't work!!!" rant but few "Oh wow, it works just fine!" posts. Who wants to work on improving the "everyman" experience when they won't be paid for it and the appreciation they get will be an email or two of thanks and people still insisting that Linux will always be crap because of every single thing they didn't fix?

[Kinda rant] Knowing that those people are giving special treatment to some other OS... or rather, I suppose they're giving special treatment to Linux. It's the "hard" one, the "rough" one. If your wifi doesn't work in Linux it's because Linux is crap. If it doesn't work in Windows it's because of literally anything but Windows. Could be solar flares or Canadian government mind control waves or something. Not precious Microsoft Windows, though. Everything works on that! (Except when it doesn't, then I get called because I'm the local "computer whiz" or, for one summer, a computer repair tech critter... with that little experience in the role I still saw drivers flaking out and taking down Windows systems)

Anyway, what do we get from "Linux will never be mainstream because my wifi doesn't work" or any other "Shut up about your stupid crappy OS" type thing that we don't get from a more cooperative approach? A bug report, or a request for help, or just "here are my experiences?" I suppose what I'm getting at is...

tl;dr: Bashing is useless and annoying, nothing is permanently crap because one person had a bad experience. ...Especially when another person had a bad experience with any available alternative. Sharing is sharing but "It sucks!" n times per week is discouraging and counterproductive.

[–] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I've honestly rarely seen negative responses to posts actually asking for help (at least here), the only reason people are responding to this post negatively is because OP's post can sound arrogant and ignorant.

ignorant because they are restating a common complaint that everyone's heard many times already (that some devices have bad support) and arrogant because they are pointing the blame at volunteers rather than the companies making those products that don't support linux, volunteers that a lot of people here respect

I'm sure the responses would've been very different if it was a post asking for help rather than a post of complaints

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

I made a small winwoze gamebox for gaming, photoshop & 3dsmax.

Dude, intalling windows was totally shit. I remember when you chucked in a winxp cd in the drive and off it went, those days are long gone it seems.

Installing and setting up Linux (mint) is a fresh breeze compared to windows.

[–] Fleur_@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago

It's time to go to bed man

[–] 0ops@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago

This is actually timely. I have this old Dell laptop that's running mint for a jellyfin server, which out of nowhere lost its Internet connection. Well not actually lost, it just became really, really slow, like 100 kbps instead of the usual 100mbps. Turning the WiFi off and on again worked, but I still had to crawl out of my comfortable bed to do it. I've had the same thing happen on my windows devices though so idk.

[–] wiki_me@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The fact that it does not work out of the box is already a bug, why not open an issue on linux mint instead of endlessly trying to tweak things? (possibly a problem of unrealistic perfectionism tbh).

Linux is already mainstream (according to statcounter 1 in 25 people in the US use Linux). but hardware can be a problem and if you don't check if your hardware is supported (or probably even better buying hardware that officially supports linux) there is a risk there will be problems.

With that said use what works, you are getting this for free and nobody owes you anything.

[–] MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

(possibly a problem of unrealistic perfectionism tbh).

Yes having working ethernet is definitely just an unrealistic expectation.

[–] rostselmasch@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 month ago

How is this a explicit Linux problem?

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