this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
30 points (100.0% liked)

Chat

7499 readers
7 users here now

Relaxed section for discussion and debate that doesn't fit anywhere else. Whether it's advice, how your week is going, a link that's at the back of your mind, or something like that, it can likely go here.


Subcommunities on Beehaw:


This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
30
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Jho@beehaw.org to c/chat@beehaw.org
 

Here is my controversial take: if it is true that a cat needs to be let outdoors unsupervised in order to live a happy life full of enrichment, then we should not have pet cats at all.

TW: Discussions of animal death.

Letting a cat wander outside unsupervised is cruel both to local wildlife, but also cruel to the cat.

Letting cats outside is often introducing a non-native species to an ecosystem which has not evolved to deal with cats. How is it any different to us accidentally introducing invasive rats, weasels, and other small predatory mammals into ecosystems? We invest a lot of money into ridding sensitive ecosystems of these invasive species but we turn a blind eye to cats because we selfishly benefit from them being around us, whether it's because we find them cute or because they provide a practical use for us as mousers.

I'm fed up of my neighbours cats who visit my garden. They poop in my planters where I grow vegetables that I eat, which presents a serious health risk to me. The cats predate the birds who visit my garden, which has exclusively been successful on fledglings and other young birds. So far, it has not been a species that is vulnerable and it's only common garden birds, but cats will kill indiscriminately and I have heard many horror stories of endangered birds being predated by cats owned by friends-of-friends.

A pigeon couple has been building a nest in a tree in my garden, but this morning I saw it was predated. I found a chewed open egg, and when showing a photo to my ornithologist friend she theorizes it was most likely a cat as the puncture into the egg shell will have been cleaner if it had been a predatory bird. Predation is a natural part of life, but this predation was not by a natural predator which is part of our local ecosystem and thus I am very upset...

But not only that, I believe letting a cat go outdoors unsupervised is cruel to the cat. Cats so often go missing, more often than not killed by cars. In other countries there are dangerous animals who can kill cats. This is not an issue here but I have personally had to dispose of dead cats who turn up in my garden after being run over on the road in front of my house. I don't think there is any other common pet animal where we so easily expose them to dangers we cannot protect them from.

Just to say, I do not hate cats. I do not blame the cats for pooping in my vegetable beds, or hunting on my property. They are animals only doing what their instincts dictate, and often are doing what we ourselves have taught them when we first domesticated them. Equally, to a degree I struggle to blame some cat owners as people will often argue that keeping a cat inside is cruel, and they do not desire to be cruel to their cats. The intentions are good, and education on this matter is poor.

There is an issue here which needs to be discussed, and the hypocracies we have normalized need to be challenged. For me, I feel that cats either need to be kept indoors if we can verify that this is not cruel to the cat, or we should be required to supervise our cats outdoors like we are supposed to do with dogs, or we should stop having pet cats. Having unsupervised outdoor cats is unacceptable.

Edit: Grammar and adding a TW just to be safe!

(page 2) 40 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] joenotjim@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is it normal for housecats to spend time outside? I have two. One is fully indoors, the other goes out 2-3 times per week, for maybe a half hour, and doesn't venture past our back patio. No hunting that I'm aware of, and definitely no pooping in the neighbor's garden.

[–] Jho@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

I imagine it probably depends on what is normalized in different countries, states, and possibly even on a more local level. Here, it is widely considered to be cruel to keep a cat indoors. I have 5 or 6 different cats who visit my garden. But there are many people with indoor cats too.

[–] grizzzlay@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I always see folks say that cats being outside is bad, that they’re a non-native invasive species.

So, I got to wondering….exactly where are cats native and non-invasive, but aren’t inside a house?” houses and dwellings for cats didn’t always exist. I don’t need to be explained to as to why cats should be inside, what I don’t understand is the missing logic about them not being outside.

[–] msprout@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Cats might not look like much, but they are some of the most successful and prolific hunters on planet earth. And they also kill entirely to keep their skills sharp.

So as you can imagine, combine an instinctual need to kill for sport with an insatiable desire to explore, you've got extremely efficient bird death machines that operate in mile-wide radiuses.

Keeping cats from going outdoors just helps to limit needless disruption to a clade of animals that is already extremely sensitive to deforestation and other external factors.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Jho@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Domestic cats are decended from the African Wildcat so I suppose you could argue cats are native in these areas. They're also closely related to the Sand Cat and European Wildcat.

So, prey animals in the mainland eurasia region may be better adapted for dealing with domestic cats since they will have evolved along very similar species. I don't have any evidence to prove this though.

I do not live in the mainland eurasia region which may be why I have so many personal annecdotes of successful cat hunts on the native wildlife in my back garden.

[–] grizzzlay@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

This is the answer I was looking for, thank you.

[–] Velociraptor@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In the end, it's a numbers game. Wild populations of cats around the world don't hold a candle to the amount of domestic cats. That's what ends up making it so damaging to wildlife. There's no shortage of people enabling cat populations either. It's inevitable when the animals in question are so cherished by humanity. Feral pigs would be another case of domesticated animals ruining habitats and killing wildlife. They are routinely destroyed, and for good reason. With cats, you're far more likely to see someone feeding a feral population than gunning them down the way hogs are. It's just the reality of our attachment.

[–] douglasg14b@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can't get rid of cat populations by killing or relocating them anyways...

They will move back in from neighboring areas.

You do catch, spay, neuter and release. This is a fundamental tactic to controlling feral cat populations.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] douglasg14b@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (9 children)

.... Put a bell on your cat. Problem solved.

We have 1 indoor/outdoor cat. She LOVES to go outside, if she's stuck inside she gets matted fur, gains weight, and is generally angry/sassy. If she gets to go out, she's a happy kitty. And she can't hunt outside animals because of her bell.

This post appears to be based on a general lack of knowledge or understand of feline behavior and needs. You appear to be thinking cats are dogs, which they are not...

"It's cruel to the cats". No, no isn't, you're projecting onto cats. Sure, some people leave their cats out to starve and fend for themselves in an urban environment, that can be cruel. But a cat being outside is not cruel, and it's rather asinine to say so.

load more comments (9 replies)

Google catio, it will please you whether you're here for the birds or the cats.

[–] paragade@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Does your opinion change regarding outdoor cats in a rural situation, like a farm?

[–] Jho@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, I think so. But I'm not entirely sure of my opinion on this.

I'm sure there are many people out there who rely on their outdoor cats for survival to prevent their food harvests from being plundered by rodents, either because it's their entire income or because it's food they consume themselves.

I am in a position of privilege and do not have to worry about procuring food and my income which I use to survive is not affected by such issues. It certainly feels wrong for me to say that in these situations people should not have outdoor cats when it is not an area I understand very well nor are these problems I face myself.

But of course, cats kill indiscriminately and will not be able to distinguish between a common rodent and an endangered bird. My hope is that there could be an alternative solution which is less destructive to local ecosystems which anyone regardless of wealth could deploy. But I certainly don't know of such a solution.

[–] YourHeroes4Ghosts@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

As a person who lives in a farming area- the farmers keep cats, but they are not pets- they're generally almost completely feral, allowed to breed uncontrolled, sometimes are not fed by humans, and when they inevitably wander into the road and are killed by cars, they are thought of as expendable- there are always more to replace them. I agree that there is probably no better rodent control, and rodent control is very necessary, but there has to be a better way to do it than using free-roaming feral farm cats.

[–] VoxAdActa@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I agree that there is probably no better rodent control,

Even their efficacy at rodent control is a myth. They're indiscriminate, opportunist killers that remove at least as many other more selective rodent-controlling animals as they do rodents (for example, snakes and owl hatchlings/fledglings).

The use of free-roaming feral "barn cats" are yet another one of those things that are "traditional", which is to say, not governed actual data-driven policy but by belief/superstition, much like so many other practices that flourish in rural areas.

[–] Jho@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is very interesting to hear. Do you have any links regarding the efficiency of cats for rodent control? I'll certainly be looking this up and reading up about this more later myself so no pressure if you do not have them to hand.

When you mention other rodent-controlling animals it does make me wonder if, say, a potential solution to this issue would be to create areas for native rodent-hunting predators to move in near farms. For example installing owl boxes in barns.

In Poland, to counter rising numbers of mosquitos, many communal buildings install large numbers of swift boxes on them to encourage swifts to nest there, as an alternative to using insecticide. This will not be a one-to-one comparison with owl boxes in barns but it does make me wonder...

Sorry this article is in Polish but it's discussed here: https://www.whitemad.pl/budki-dla-jerzykow-na-zwyklym-bloku-w-warszawie-te-ptaki-to-najwiekszy-wrog-komarow/

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: ‹ prev next ›