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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Jho@beehaw.org to c/chat@beehaw.org
 

Here is my controversial take: if it is true that a cat needs to be let outdoors unsupervised in order to live a happy life full of enrichment, then we should not have pet cats at all.

TW: Discussions of animal death.

Letting a cat wander outside unsupervised is cruel both to local wildlife, but also cruel to the cat.

Letting cats outside is often introducing a non-native species to an ecosystem which has not evolved to deal with cats. How is it any different to us accidentally introducing invasive rats, weasels, and other small predatory mammals into ecosystems? We invest a lot of money into ridding sensitive ecosystems of these invasive species but we turn a blind eye to cats because we selfishly benefit from them being around us, whether it's because we find them cute or because they provide a practical use for us as mousers.

I'm fed up of my neighbours cats who visit my garden. They poop in my planters where I grow vegetables that I eat, which presents a serious health risk to me. The cats predate the birds who visit my garden, which has exclusively been successful on fledglings and other young birds. So far, it has not been a species that is vulnerable and it's only common garden birds, but cats will kill indiscriminately and I have heard many horror stories of endangered birds being predated by cats owned by friends-of-friends.

A pigeon couple has been building a nest in a tree in my garden, but this morning I saw it was predated. I found a chewed open egg, and when showing a photo to my ornithologist friend she theorizes it was most likely a cat as the puncture into the egg shell will have been cleaner if it had been a predatory bird. Predation is a natural part of life, but this predation was not by a natural predator which is part of our local ecosystem and thus I am very upset...

But not only that, I believe letting a cat go outdoors unsupervised is cruel to the cat. Cats so often go missing, more often than not killed by cars. In other countries there are dangerous animals who can kill cats. This is not an issue here but I have personally had to dispose of dead cats who turn up in my garden after being run over on the road in front of my house. I don't think there is any other common pet animal where we so easily expose them to dangers we cannot protect them from.

Just to say, I do not hate cats. I do not blame the cats for pooping in my vegetable beds, or hunting on my property. They are animals only doing what their instincts dictate, and often are doing what we ourselves have taught them when we first domesticated them. Equally, to a degree I struggle to blame some cat owners as people will often argue that keeping a cat inside is cruel, and they do not desire to be cruel to their cats. The intentions are good, and education on this matter is poor.

There is an issue here which needs to be discussed, and the hypocracies we have normalized need to be challenged. For me, I feel that cats either need to be kept indoors if we can verify that this is not cruel to the cat, or we should be required to supervise our cats outdoors like we are supposed to do with dogs, or we should stop having pet cats. Having unsupervised outdoor cats is unacceptable.

Edit: Grammar and adding a TW just to be safe!

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[–] Tracer@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I know not everyone will be able to, but I had an outside enclosure built for my kitty that connects to my house. He gets to sunbathe out there, stare at wild animals, hide in his special bush. He loves it. He gets to enjoy the outdoors without harming the wildlife or putting himself in danger.

[–] EremesZorn@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

That actually sounds like an awesome idea.

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[–] Dee_Imaginarium@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

Looking at the comments I'm so happy Beehaw has an overall good take on this subject. With progressive mindsets it seems 50/50 whether they agree with protecting cats and the environment. There is so much science that shows having cats be outdoors not only decimates local fauna but also increases mortality of the cat up to ~80% (over the years I've seen studies on that subject ranging from 67% to 85%). Keep your cat inside if you care about it, if it's bored you're not playing with it enough or don't have a good environment for it to explore and keep entertained. Pay attention to your cats.

[–] yenahmik@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

I was walking my dog earlier this week and came across a cat that had most likely been killed by a coyote. It was incredibly upsetting to see and completely ruined my day. That cat did not need to live it's last moments in fear and fighting for its life, if only it's owners had kept it inside/supervised it when outside.

On a better note. I once saw a woman walking down the street and her cat was just following her along (no leash). It was super cute and you could definitely tell they had a fantastic bond. More cat owners should be like that lady.

[–] mtizim@beehaw.org 7 points 1 year ago

It's a rant, I'll add on with one of my own.

I absolutely, really, hate that this gets spun around as "keeping a cat inside is cruel" or "my kitty is innocent" or whatever.

"Don't let your cats outside because it's dangerous for them!!". No, it's really not. The cat IS the danger. The hedgehogs, the birds, the polecats, all other small to medium mammals are terrorized by your cat. The actual medium sized predators are forced out of their territories, because they actually have to live on the food they catch, and don't just hunt for fun.

I really don't care if it's cruel to the cat if it's kept from killing hundreds of animals over the course of its life. But it's always about the "cute little uwu kitties".

And the idea of a neighborhood cat is somehow normalized. It's normal to see a cat on the street for some reason. They're "cute", and every neighborhood has at least one. Awesome.

You might think I'm irrationally angry about this. But the fact is, that cats kill billions of birds [1] in the U.S yearly. Do you know how much a billion is? It's almost unimaginable.

But it's somehow normal. And I come across as a cat hater when I mention this to people who let their cats outside.

I wish I could like cats, and I did use to. But now, they're just a symbol of death for me.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 (I'm aware that ~70% are caused by un-owned cats, but how many cat ladies supporting them are in your neighborhood?)

[–] saltuarium@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Some people unfortunately don't want to deny their pets anything, even if it's for their own good. I knew a woman who fed her dog chocolate ice cream because it was "too sad" to deny the dog or give it species-appropriate treats. Or people feeding ducks bread even though they know it's a bad idea just because doing it makes them feel good.

So, even if letting a cat free roam outside is bad for the cat, the neighbours, and the environment, and the owner knows that, letting their cat loose makes them feel better so outdoors they go.

I don't believe it's cruel for cats to be indoors, people just don't play with their cats enough or provide them enough enrichment.

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[–] TheBaldness@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure what to add here that hasn't already been said, so I'm just going to vent.

Cats in urban areas are vermin. In rural areas, they're pests. They're disgusting unclean animals, a vector for disease, and I hate them. I also live with an indoor cat. She's pretty polite most of the time, and we get along just fine. I would not choose to have a cat, but my partner owns a cat, and they're a package deal.

Outdoor cats should not be a thing.

There is an outdoor cat living across the street from me, and he's by far one of the friendliest cats I've ever met. As soon as he meets you, you can pick him up, touch his belly, he doesn't care. He also runs right out in front of cars and kills local birds. I've saved more than one bird from him. He's a very charming little asshole, but he shouldn't be outdoors.

In Australia, they're paying people to hunt feral cats. There is footage on YouTube. I used to think cats didn't belong cooped up in the house, but now I see that they belong exclusively cooped in the house. I hope we've reached a tipping point regarding awareness on this issue.

End rant.

[–] GoVegan@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Absolutely agree. Keeping cats indoor, or only letting them outside with a leash or fenced off area, is the responsible thing to do. People in general just dont nearly care about animals even a tenth as much as they often proclaim to do. They have no issue with them being killed for their own selfish reasons. If you agree you should do what my username says lol.

[–] EremesZorn@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Using animals for food is not inherently shameful; humans have done this for thousands of years. The difference is, humans used to respect the animals as more than just a food source and utilize as much of a killed animal as possible. The problem nowadays is the sheer excess. Corporate-owned farms are disgusting and the conditions are utterly cruel all in the name of profit and supplying demand.

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nah, I'll go lab/vat-grown.

[–] silent_g@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I've heard that putting a bell and a bright, reflective collar on a cat can prevent them from hunting wildlife.
Does anyone know how true this is, or if doing so would negate some of the risks of having an outdoor cat?

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[–] PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I love cats, but the fact that they ruin local wildlife has been known for quite some time.

From the American Bird Conservancy:

Outdoor domestic cats are a recognized threat to global biodiversity. Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild and continue to adversely impact a wide variety of other species, including those at risk of extinction, such as Piping Plover.

The ecological dangers are so critical that the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) lists domestic cats as one of the world’s worst non-native invasive species.

So, I agree with you on this point alone. I mean, your other points are good, too, but I think the impact to wildlife is the strongest and best argument against outdoor cats. I'm definitely not in favor of not having pet cats. My life would be so incomplete....

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[–] YourHeroes4Ghosts@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I agree. I live in a rural area in a country where cats were seen as farm tools rather than living beings and pets until very recently, and keeping a cat indoors is believed to be “cruel” by most, but I see cats killed by cars incredibly frequently.

Also, I have two highly prey-driven dogs who are always controlled except when they’re in my walled back garden. The neighbour’s outdoor cat wandered into my garden, and it ended in a tragedy that left both me and the neighbour traumatised. The cat didn’t survive. It was in no way my fault, or even really the dogs' fault- the cat should never have been allowed to wander into the dogs' space on my property.

Then the neighbour tried to have our dogs put down, claiming that the dogs had come into her garden, killed the cat, and returned to our garden. Thankfully the dog warden who came to investigate saw that this was patent nonsense- we have a double-gated 3-metre wall with wire across the top on the neighbour’s side, it’s not possible for the dogs to escape into the next garden and quickly return.

So the neighbour built a catio for her new cat and does not let it wander. I am deeply sorry that a cat died before she came to that conclusion, but she should have controlled her animal just as I control mine.

[–] middlemuddle@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

That is such an awful experience. I also have a dog with a pretty strong prey drive. Every once in a while a neighbor's cat will crawl along the top of our fence and he goes nuts. If he ever caught the cat, I'm sure it would be the end of it. I would feel so guilty because the cat doesn't deserve that, but what else can I do? I have a strong fence around my yard and my dog is never off leash anywhere else. We've trained him well enough that he's totally chill with our own indoor cat, but outside cats are a completely different story.

Letting your pet roam around wouldn't be acceptable if it were a dog, why is a cat okay?

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[–] Leafeytea@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

As a dog person, I haven't enough personal experience to know if keeping them indoors is actually as bad as people might think, but I can share that a best friend of mine who has a now 10 yr old cat named Buddy has kept him in their house since he was a tiny kitten. You can put Buddy on the deck outside their kitchen, the patio in their yard, or just in front of an open window and he appears to literally care less about even thinking of leaving the spot. He is a skinny cat but pretty strong for his age, playful, seems very affectionate, and totally disinterested in being anywhere my friend and his family isn't. Maybe it's a question of socialization for the cats?

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[–] Velociraptor@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I love birds. I have a couple myself but I also put considerable time and effort into making my garden a place for them to visit. I'm sure you know where this is going.

I hate that there's nothing I can do to keep cats out of the yard. I hate that people are too lazy to provide enrichment for their pet indoors and feel entitled to inflict it upon the neighborhood instead. I have had to clean up dead kittens who got hit and crawled under my car to die. I have had to clean up full dead families of birds I rarely get to see anymore who I somehow lucked into enticing them to nest nearby. I have found full nests of dead newborn rabbits with my lawn mower because they had been left scattered dead in tall grass and already teeming with maggots in the summer sun.

I don't understand why all of this has to be my problem. There is quite simply nothing good about letting cats outdoors. If they're not fixed, they create kittens who end up dead. If someone tries to control their hunting with a bell on the collar, they just adapt and go on killing. They shit and fight and die miserable deaths, and for what? Why are people so stubborn and just straight up mean when it comes to keeping your pet indoors? You can show someone the statistics and point them to resources for indoor enrichment and they get mad about it. I don't get it.

[–] EremesZorn@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

Over the decades, my mother has fostered approximately 20 or so cats born in the neighborhood outside to strays. She will either bring them to the AWA or a no-kill shelter for adoption, find them a home personally, or adopt them into the household. To this day, all the cats my parents have owned were brought in from the wild and socialized.
Ignorant owners are solely the cause of decades of time and money invested in that endeavor. Their house is near a major state route and there are a shit ton of drop-offs. And the worst part is, nobody else in the neighborhood gives a fuck. It has been only through the efforts of my mother that the cat population has been kept in control in the neighborhood where I grew up.

[–] lagomorphlecture@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have 2 cats.. They live inside and seem happy to me. My sister used to let her cats out and was calling my boyfriend near daily to come deal with some small animal they had killed. One day it was a bunny. We have 3 pet bunnies, also indoors, also seemingly happy. That frickin upset him so much so that was the end of it. I told her he couldn't clean up any more dead animals for her and she would need to keep them inside or handle it herself. She has had them indoors now for over a year and it was a tough transition but they seem fine now.

[–] Velociraptor@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I really cannot stress enough just how upsetting it is to clean up dead kittens. All the dead baby animals are upsetting but it hits different when it's a kitten.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I live in a city so the only local wildlife is rats and pigeons. I dont have a cat and i wouldn't worry if my cat killed either.

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[–] cadeje@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The problem from my point of view is people not spaying/neutering cats, and then inevitably a feral population will show up. Many cats can have a litter at 6 months old. I've personally watched generations of cats grow outside my workplace.

It's a huge problem. All the local shelters are beyond max capacity JUST FROM CATS. Feral cats explode in population, and the only real way to get populations under control is more Trap-Neuter-Return programs along with educating cat owners on why they absolutely must spay/neuter. There is no excuse not to.

https://www.alleycat.org/our-work/trap-neuter-return/

[–] MJBrune@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'd also argue that having a cat inside all the time is equally as cruel to the cat. Having pets most of the time isn't a benefit to the animal but instead to the human. Dogs included. Overall it's cruel to animals to keep them as pets and a lot of people who intensely care for animals don't want to hear that. They want to fill their house with as many pets as possible and they don't understand that's not healthy for anyone.

[–] Velociraptor@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's cruel is having a pet you never interact with or care for. Inflicting your cat on your neighborhood is just a different kind of cruelty altogether - as is dropping your domesticated animal into a dangerous environment unsupervised. It's not a zero sum game where the cat is either indoors and tortured or outdoors and fulfilled. You can provide more than adequate enrichment with a modest investment of time and money. Insisting on the misery of your cat to persist is ironically the true projection of human emotion here.

Honest question to anyone who disagrees: many small animals are kept inside their entire lives. Is this torture? Do you look down on those who own small animals?

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[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

Having pets most of the time isn’t a benefit to the animal but instead to the human.

My cats would have either gone hungry or been killed by dogs had I not adopted them. My parents' cat would be behind bars or euthanized had she not been adopted.

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[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Here is my controversial take: if it is true that a cat needs to be let outdoors unsupervised in order to live a happy life full of enrichment, then we should not have pet cats at all.

So, what do you propose to do with all the cats that currently exist? Abandon them to fend for themselves? That would result in them being…outdoors, exactly like what you're complaining about. Kill them all? That's cruel, too. And unlike wild animals, cats trust us as their protectors and caretakers, so killing them would also be a betrayal.

It's way too late to make the argument you're making. All that can be done at this point is to sterilize them all, which is already in progress.

[–] Velociraptor@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

The proposal being made is to keep your pet cat(s) indoors. That's it.

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[–] Jho@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

We keep all our current cats indoors and stop breeding domestic cats...

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