this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2024
578 points (98.0% liked)

Technology

59569 readers
3949 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] starflower@lemmy.blahaj.zone 179 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Misleading title: SIEMENS Mobility is looking for said Windows 3.11 admin. NOT the German Railway

[–] massive_bereavement@kbin.social 72 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Deutsche Bahn is the circus and Siemens in this case the clowns.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 9 months ago

If the system can't run perfectly on its own by now.... I can teach them how to play the snakes game on it.

[–] voodooattack@lemmy.world 93 points 9 months ago (13 children)

Legacy hardware and operating systems are battle tested, having been extensively probed and patched during their heyday. The same can be said for software written for these platforms – they have been refined to the point that they can execute their intended tasks without incident. If it is ain't broke, don't fix it. One could also argue that dated platforms are less likely to be targeted by modern cybercriminals. Learning the ins and outs of a legacy system does not make sense when there are so few targets still using them. A hacker would be far better off to master something newer that millions of systems still use.

Tell me you know nothing about cybersecurity without telling me you know nothing about cybersecurity. Wtf is this drivel?

[–] ooterness@lemmy.world 60 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Simple solution: Don't connect it to the Internet. Hackers hate this one weird trick.

[–] voodooattack@lemmy.world 33 points 9 months ago (4 children)

And said trick ends when an attacker manages to socially-engineer their way in. (But maybe they’ll drop floppies instead of flash drives around the block this time)

[–] yesman@lemmy.world 23 points 9 months ago (6 children)

You really think that infrastructure IT is dumb unless it can brush off a Stuxnet-like attack by the CIA and Mosad? Most RR traffic signals in the US are run with mechanical logic, physical switches connected to circuits closed by steel wheels on steel tracks. Do you really want a "move fast and break things" tech bro to update all this stuff for us?

All kinds of infrastructure uses ancient software because it's reliable. Updating it just to protect from hackers causing damage is likely to cause that damage unintentionally while doing little to protect from hackers anyhow.

load more comments (6 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] arc@lemm.ee 26 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It really depends if these systems (that appear to control arrival boards) are on a network or not. If they're not, then there is minimal risk to leave them the way they are. Somebody would need physical access to the devices to do harm. If they are on a network then that's a pretty big deal, but some attacks could be mitigated against by tunnelling and/or additional packet filtering to ensure the integrity of messages.

Continuing on a railway theme you should be FAR more worried all the devices that run up and down the side of railway lines - PLCs that talk with each other and operations centres to control things like lights, junctions, crossings etc. If they're more than 5 years old then chances are then all that traffic is in the clear, and because these things live in boxes by the railway line, it wouldn't take much to break into a network and potentially kill people by running two trains into each other.

[–] silver@lemmy.brendan.ie 13 points 9 months ago (2 children)

the job was advertised as being remote.....

[–] arc@lemm.ee 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The job might be remote, doesn't mean the system is remote. For all you or I know they want somebody to reverse engineer the protocol of this thing, which could be some weird board & driver that hooks into an old PC so they can switch it out for something else.

[–] bane_killgrind@lemmy.ml 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It's in the job description, remote access is available via a repurposed laparoscope robot and webcam placed in front of the original terminal keyboard and CRT

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] miss_brainfarts@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 9 months ago

they can execute their intended tasks without incident

Now if only the Deutsche Bahn could do that too

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 9 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Cybersecurity != Safety Critical

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (9 replies)
[–] InvaderDJ@lemmy.world 63 points 9 months ago (10 children)

Imagine both the annoyance and job security having to manage MS-DOS and 3.1 systems for a railroad would entail.

[–] theangryseal@lemmy.world 31 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I would love it so much. I’d feel right at home. I miss sitting in my room and learning everything I could about DOS. That was the best time I ever had with computers.

I once built, setup, and maintained about 20 computers for a Christian school for free just because I loved doing it so much.

I wish I still had that enthusiasm for tech.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] MeanEYE@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Well, DOS is open source now. And that old hardware was quite reliable. Fewer moving parts, I'd expect fewer things to break.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] LiveLM@lemmy.zip 53 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

Ooh, someone is about to make BANK!

[–] GlitchyDigiBun@lemmy.dbzer0.com 35 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Some retired old fart who can't be bothered to learn fancy-schmancy Web 2.0. Rock on like it's '93

[–] ripcord@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago

Or a middle-aged fart who did learn new stuff but remembers the old stuff too

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] dhork@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago (1 children)

They're gonna party like it's 1989

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] toofpic@lemmy.world 43 points 9 months ago (16 children)

We're maintaining and developing OpenVMS OS, and both we and our customers need Cobol, Fortran, and other half-dead languages coders.
Many large companies maintain their old systems and use them for production or data processing purposes. Sometimes it's too expensive to migrate off, but im many cases "it just works"

[–] Pigeon@programming.dev 34 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I'm a COBOL developer. For old COBOL systems it's not just a case of it being expensive to "migrate away", it's extremely risky and for no significant benefit.

Businesses have essentially two options, modernize what they already have, or tear everything apart and start from scratch. COBOL programs don't "just work", they're good at what they need to do (business transactions). Therefore, there isn't a significant need to rewrite everything, especially when it's possible to modernize and reuse existing business logic contained within COBOL programs. For example, COBOL programs aren't tied to old hardware, you can run your COBOL applications on the cloud instead. This is much safer and cheaper than rewriting everything.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 23 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I work primarily in a Long Tail language (languages don't die, but they have a long tail where usage slowly creeps away). I tell the business that we could ultimately solve all the problems with the platform except for one: finding new programmers to hire for it. That's what will ultimately force us to migrate. Doesn't have anything to do with cost or ability to take on new features or handle new ways of doing things.

[–] Pigeon@programming.dev 14 points 9 months ago (1 children)

When it comes to COBOL developers, there are a lot of developers retiring but there are also a lot of programmers being trained in COBOL every year. It's for this reason that the average age of COBOL developers has stayed roughly the same for the past 2 decades despite retirements. But that said the total number of COBOL developers is decreasing.

It is certainly an issue. Not many young programmers want to learn COBOL. COBOL isn't taught in many educational institutions. There are very few online resources that programmers can use to self-teach COBOL. More often than not people are trained in COBOL by their employer. I didn't know how to program in COBOL until I started at my current company (and even then I stumbled into this position accidentally because I wasn't aware that junior developer jobs in COBOL existed when I graduated university).

It's a shame.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Dasnap@lemmy.world 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (6 children)

Isn't pretty much all airport scheduling based off software from the 80s or something?

Edit: Found a video about it.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago

And in many cases if it gets replaced it's for a system that looks fancier but actually has more problems than the original... See Phoenix for the Canadian government employees pay.

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 37 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Do I get to move to Germany for this?

[–] Syntha@sh.itjust.works 21 points 9 months ago (2 children)

You might, actually. Provided there is no available EU applicant.

[–] nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

There are probably many people in Japan with this skillset given that they're only now getting off disks for certain government processes.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] x4740N@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Better hope those systems are not network enabled

[–] TheFerrango@lemmy.basedcount.com 20 points 9 months ago (7 children)

They’re probably still running on their own Netware network. Is there still Win16 compatible malware going around?

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 20 points 9 months ago (2 children)

10/10 would install Doom on it.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] kby@feddit.de 16 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Remote? Do you connect yourself over telnet or what?

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (7 children)

Not gonna lie, part of me wants to relive the SoundBlaster and DOS extenders era and watch stuff with QuickTime. Tinkering with config.sys and autoexec.bat was quite fun back then.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] R3tl3f@feddit.de 14 points 9 months ago

Thats the reason, why they have Problems to find drivers (If you know, what i mean) 😜

[–] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago

At least it's not windows 8.

[–] PanArab@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago

Migrating to FreeDOS might be feasible for them.

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 12 points 9 months ago (7 children)

Why use MS-DOS? Why don't we just re-write it in Rust?

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] yoz@aussie.zone 10 points 9 months ago (7 children)

Sign me up if you're paying $300k+

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] Hyperreality@kbin.social 10 points 9 months ago (31 children)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[–] Vector@lemmy.world 22 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (14 children)

Until it becomes obsolete, unsupportable, the crux of your operation, and/or the basis for all of your decisions 😬

(Yes, I read the article, it’s just the signs, but yes, the above still applies!)

load more comments (14 replies)
[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 10 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Too critical to be upgraded is something I wish I'd never hear or see again in my professional career.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (29 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›