Trump doesn't need to withdraw from NATO. He just needs to give Putin additional top secret intelligence, ignore all treaties, and do whatever the fuck he wants to do. Seriously, does anyone expect anything else?
this post was submitted on 18 Dec 2023
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Trump can still fuck Ukraine, but now it's harder to fuck up NATO and international relations for decades to come. Different things.
As much as I hope you are correct, I’m not going to bet that he can’t fuck with our international relations for decades to come.
"harder to"
It's that pesky nuance thing nobody seems to be able to get these days again.
And you think giving NATO intelligence to Putin won't screw up our relations with NATO and other nations? Because that's what he would do if reelected. Hell, knowing Trump, he'd probably invite Putin to the swearing in, and give him Top secret materials as a goody bag when he went home.
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Alternate possibility: he lets Ukraine fall, Russia, China, and/or NK are emboldened to attack NATO countries, and we have to send troops to war.
Trump invokes wartime powers and just never stops.
Or he does all that except sending the troops.
He'll just declare war on Iran.
Trump can openly say he won't ever allow US military intervention as part of NATO article 5, so even if the US remains in NATO it's teeth are gone.
Maybe, dear US citizens, don't vote that evil clown again. Last time really stressed our good friendship.
I mean the majority of us didn't. But yes let's hope even less next time. Sorry for stressing our friendship random person from unknown other country, we tried to stop it
Ok, now pass one requiring the President to support and defend the Constitution, and to not be such an utter shithead.
I realize that second one is delusional when it comes to Trump.
My favorite part was how that was implied and held true by every fucking president.
And now we have to make shit explicit.
I mean, the President-elect must take the Oath of Office as stated in Article II, Section I , Clause 8 of the Constitution:
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation: – “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”.
So it is on there. But it’s really just a pinky promise between you and a higher power. Whether that be a deity, the government, society/the social contract, or whatever.
There are two problems with this:
1, president Trump did not believe in a higher power than himself. He may present as Christian or even a twice-a-year Christian, but make no doubts, he saw himself as the highest power, answerable to no one
2, the president shouldn’t be answerable to no one. But the system of checks and balances is broken by a party-before-country half of Congress and a stacked and obviously biased and hyper-political Supreme Court (that has at least one seat stolen depending on how consistent you are in your beliefs. More if you think back to Bush v Gore…which is also why I hate people spouting for third parties. If half of the Florida Nader voters held their nose and voted for Gore, there wouldn’t have even been a question. Were their virtues worth the result that came of them? I say the same for the Bernie Bros who couldn’t hold their nose for HRC).
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Is there a legal argument being made that the oath of office is not a binding agreement?
I feel like that would lose in court….
Oaths are generally not legally binding. For instance, you can not swear to tell the truth in court and perjury is still a thing. The swearing in is just a formality.
Oaths are, as always, dependent upon the character of the person taking them and social consequences about breaking them.
Is there case law on that? I’m not aware of anyone that testifies before a court without being sworn in?
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It’s only one of Trump’s primary defenses for Jan 6th lately. Where have you been?
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-oath-support-constitution-colorado-insurrection-1847482
That didn’t hold water it seems: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/19/us/politics/trump-colorado-ballot-14th-amendment.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
So it’s a non issue.
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So. The Republican majority think Trump could (will?) win and want to keep him from burning the house down, even working with Dems to get this done, but all without actually being seen as having taken a direct stand against him or visibly not supporting his reelection/coup/whatthefuckever.
Fucking cowards.
I absolutely hate The Hill simply because they cannot be bothered to take 2 seconds to link to the damn bills they talk about in their articles.
For all I know they could talk about Congress passing a bill ratifying that the color of the sky shall be considered Red and the reader has no idea if it is true or not.
Good.
But as a point of contention, dictators, emperors, supreme leaders, etc. are not presidents. Just saying.
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The fact that this is even something Congress needed to consider doing is crazy.
The main purpose of the US military is deterrence. Soldiers and tanks and aircraft carriers do their job by being so intimidating that no one starts a major war. (They're still useful if a war does start, but winning a war is far worse than not having to fight it in the first place.) A major component of this system of deterrence is the presentation of an indivisible united front between us and our allies. Simply having the President publicly question the dedication of the USA to NATO did billions of dollars worth of damage - compare how much better it would be to have had Trump keep his mouth shut than it would be to build an extra carrier battle group. (Arguments about who pays how much can be held in secret.)
The fun part is that they can pass a law to prevent Trump from officially leaving NATO, but they can't pass a law to make him actually honor the alliance if a war does start, and they especially can't pass a law to make the enemies of the USA believe that he would honor the alliance.
I was under the impression that while one function of the the US military is being a deterrence army, they also regularly invade countries around the globe in wars of aggression?
Eh, sorta. As far as full scale invasion is concerned, off the top of my head, it's happened three times since WWII (Iraq twice, Afghanistan once). There are many other cases that aren't really invasions, but are terrible in their own right.
Korea and Vietnam were both cases of the country's government being split, and one of the factions asked the US to intervene. Then there are a hundred conflicts all over where the US was involved in some capacity--usually material support or training, but not combat. Those smaller support actions are where the really bad stuff is. Most of South America was completely fucked up in that way. The US could pretend not to be involved while one faction of locals commits crimes against humanity.
It's not to deter countries from starting wars, it's to deter countries from stopping using the dollar as a reserve currency. The wars of aggression come with that.
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Congress will declare the state of war which is their constitutional power to do so.
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SEC. 1250A. LIMITATION ON WITHDRAWAL FROM THE NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANIZATION.
(a) OPPOSITION OF CONGRESS TO SUSPENSION, TERMINATION, DENUNCIATION, OR WITHDRAWAL FROM NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY.— The President shall not suspend, terminate, denounce, or withdraw the United States from the North Atlantic Treaty, done at Wash- ington, DC, April 4, 1949, except by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, provided that two-thirds of the Senators present concur, or pursuant to an Act of Congress.
(b) LIMITATION ON THE USE OF FUNDS.—No funds authorized or appropriated by any Act may be used to support, directly or indirectly, any decision on the part of any United States Govern- ment official to suspend, terminate, denounce, or withdraw the United States from the North Atlantic Treaty, done at Washington, DC, April 4, 1949, except by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, provided that two-thirds of the Senators present concur, or pursuant to an Act of Congress.
(c) NOTIFICATION OF TREATY ACTION.—
(1) CONSULTATION.—Prior to the notification described in paragraph (2), the President shall consult with the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives in relation to any initiative to suspend, terminate, denounce, or withdraw the United States from the North Atlantic Treaty.
(2) NOTIFICATION.—The President shall notify the Com- mittee on Foreign Relations of the Senate and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives in writing of any deliberation or decision to suspend, terminate, denounce, or withdraw the United States from the North Atlantic Treaty, as soon as possible but in no event later than 180 days prior to taking such action.
(d) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize, imply, or otherwise indicate that the Presi- dent may suspend, terminate, denounce, or withdraw from any treaty to which the Senate has provided its advice and consent without the advice and consent of the Senate to such act or pursuant to an Act of Congress.
(e) SEVERABILITY.—If any provision of this section or the application of such provision is held by a Federal court to be unconstitutional, the remainder of this subtitle and the application of such provisions to any other person or circumstance shall not be affected thereby.
(f) DEFINITIONS.—In this subtitle, the terms ‘‘withdrawal’’, ‘‘denunciation’’, ‘‘suspension’’, and ‘‘termination’’ have the meaning given the terms in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, concluded at Vienna May 23, 1969.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2670/text
Thanks very much for sharing this language.
I do not think it will be effective. This has been done before in exactly the same way and that failed.
Trump doesn't follow laws and has and continues to be at war with the constitution and rule of law. Nothing congress does matters. Especially when it's filled with brown shirt traitors.
Finally some good news.
This won’t mean squat if Trump is elected. Fascist assholes don’t follow rules.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Tim Kaine (D-Va.) and Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), was included in the annual National Defense Authorization Act, which passed out of the House on Thursday and is expected to be signed by President Biden.
The provision underscores Congress’s commitment to the NATO alliance that was a target of former President Trump’s ire during his term in office.
“NATO has held strong in response to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin’s war in Ukraine and rising challenges around the world,” Kaine said in a statement.
Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) leaves a Senate Republican Conference luncheon where they heard from Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.)
Biden has invested deeply in the NATO alliance during his term, committing more troops and military resources to Europe as a show of force against Putin’s war.
The former president’s advocates say his tough talk and criticisms of the alliance served to inspire member-states to fulfill their obligations to reach 2 percent of defense spending, lightening the burden on the U.S.
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