this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 117 points 8 months ago (6 children)

Thanks Merkel for keeping us dependent on russian gas.

And thanks all the peoplethat voted against efforts to move to renewables, continue to block themand opposed a law that would transition us away from fossil heating.

Also the sale of Oil and Gas heating skyrocketed this year, because of panics that it might be banned soon to install new ones under the new law. The law specified something like 2027, but the German idiot never lets facts get in the way of his Angst and panic pushed by right wing media and politics.

The issue is that the progressive side warned that this will happen and it will get worse as the prices of fossils have to increase. But the conservative majority in Germany wants to get fucked, as long as they can continue fucking the planet, because that is what they always did and identify with.

[–] Diplomjodler@feddit.de 49 points 8 months ago (1 children)

diE gRüNeN wOlLeN uNs UnSeRe aUtOs wEgNehMeN!!!

[–] 768@sh.itjust.works 28 points 8 months ago

This artificial panic is for once not about cars, it's about heating. Too many germans think and or have been conditioned to think that the Greens and other environmentalists want them to just shut off their heating and freeze. The network of gas industry lobbyists is strong in germany and successfully installed a "clean-gas"-campaign in the former government and now convinces even a Green industrial minister to install new and very oversized LNG terminals, in part because of the Green-cold scare.

[–] the_third@feddit.de 34 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Thanks Merkel

Let's not forget the excellent work of Peter Altmaier in that regard:

https://www-n--tv-de.translate.goog/politik/Einbruch-bei-der-Photovoltaik-article7193576.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp


Altmaier is pleased

Slump in photovoltaics

11.09.2012, 6:53 pm

Peter Altmaier speaks in the Bundestag for the first time as Environment Minister. He sees the slump in the expansion of photovoltaics as a success. At the same time he is committed to the energy transition. The opposition is sceptical: Black/Yellow coalition government is making a mess of the energy transition. This cannot be "twittered away".

Federal Environment Minister Peter Altmaier sees initial successes in the attempt to avoid additional costs by expanding renewable energies too quickly. In July, the construction of new solar plants had reached an output of 540 megawatts in July and 320 megawatts in August, said the CDU politician when discussing his ministry's budget in the Bundestag. In June it was still around 1800 and at the almost 4400 megawatts in the first half of the year. The boom in the first half of the year was also triggered by the announcement of the cuts. The subsidy payments factored into the price of electricity had been cut before the summer break in order to contain costs somewhat. "This shows that our joint law is starting to take effect, working," said Altmaier.

Altmaier defended his demand that that the expansion of renewable energies cannot continue unabated. For example, nobody could be interested in solar roofs and wind turbines without electricity grids. "A lot has been neglected in the past."

FDP wants full stop

The generation of electricity from wind, biomass or solar energy is growing significantly faster than planned by the government. As a result, subsidies are also increasing, there are growing calls within the coalition to reorganise subsidies and and put the brakes on expansion. While the FDP and the Ministry of Economic Affairs want to push through new regulations before the federal election in the autumn of 2013, Altmaier has described this as unrealistic. However, Altmaier has also called a revision of the subsidisation necessary. "It is not only important that the energy transition succeeds, it also depends on how it succeeds," he said.

"You can't tweet that away"

SPD environmental politician Matthias Miersch criticised Altmaier's comments, saying that he was doing the business of the opponents of the energy transition in the coalition. This would drive up electricity costs for SMEs and consumers, as the government had tripled the number of companies exempted from the costs of subsidising green electricity. This means that households and small businesses have to pay all the more, said Miersch. In addition, the prices for electricity on the exchanges had fallen due to the increase in green electricity. However, the large suppliers were not passing this on to consumers. Sven-Christian Kindler from the Greens criticised that Altmaier should stand up for renewable energies and put the brakes on their opponents in his own ranks. The FDP is even talking about a moratorium on expansion. "The energy turnaround with Black-Yellow means: this is the turnaround against renewable energies," he said. He added that the black/yellow coalition was making a mess of the energy transition. "You, Minister Altmaier, can't witter that away either," said Kindler. The accusation led to a brief exchange of blows on Twitter. Altmaier wrote about and to Kindler: "I suspect he's somehow jealous! ;-)" And Kindler replied: "Nope. Good Twitter performance is no substitute for bad environmental policy. You can't tweet failure in the energy transition beautifully".

In the Bundestag, Altmaier emphasised that the energy transition is a key project. "If we can show that we are economically successful with a new energy policy, this will be emulated in other countries." Oil, gas and coal would then be increasingly replaced by renewable energies and climate protection would be advanced accordingly.

[–] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago (1 children)

And thanks all the peoplethat voted against efforts to move to renewables, continue to block themand opposed a law that would transition us away from fossil heating.

I believe those people are called "conservatives".

[–] GenEcon@lemm.ee 15 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If it were only the conservatives. The liberal party and the social democrats aren't better in any way.

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[–] theKalash@feddit.ch 10 points 8 months ago

Thanks Merkel for keeping us dependent on russian gas.

And let's thank the SPD for making us depend on russian gas in the first place.

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[–] ProcurementCat@feddit.de 59 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Which is exactly what Putin aims to achieve, in an effort to weaken Western resolve. And be real: it is no coincidence that the politicians opposed to helping people heat their homes affordably are conservatives with questionable views on russia.

[–] dust_accelerator@discuss.tchncs.de 36 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The Putin puppets (AFD, FN, Fidez,..):

  1. Reject push for renewable energy (muh coal, muh diesel)
  2. "Subsidies are fascist"
  3. "Wah, wah, can't afford my environment destroying car/heater anymore"
  4. "Thanks Obama"

[–] dumdum666@kbin.social 42 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (8 children)

Please do not share links from this rightwing outlet - isn’t someone else reporting on this subject?

Edit: OP shared a link to „Welt“ but changed it by now - consider the comment irrelevant.

[–] Sagan@eslemmy.es 21 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'm not familiar with German newspapers, do you have an article from another newspaper I could replace the link with?

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 35 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The FAZ is still rather conservative, but much better than the "Welt":

https://m.faz.net/agenturmeldungen/dpa/5-5-millionen-menschen-konnten-2022-nicht-angemessen-heizen-19344930.html

Or you could link to DeStatis, the website of the Federal Statistical Office:

https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Zahl-der-Woche/2023/PD23_48_p002.html

Whatever you like best! Thank you for considering to change the link.

[–] Sagan@eslemmy.es 17 points 8 months ago (2 children)
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[–] Black616Angel@feddit.de 4 points 8 months ago

Okay, OP already changed the link, cause I thought "since when is destatis rightwing?"

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[–] letmesleep@feddit.de 18 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

That's a pointless title. The truth is that 5.5 people claim they didn't heat sufficiently. Whether it was objectively sufficient is a completely different question and going by the actual numbers for usage, households Germans barely reduced their heating. Almost all savings were done by the industry. The the average person in Germany still heats their living room above 20°C.

If you're healthy then going with 17°C indoors isn't actually a problem (I tested that myself last year). Having to wear a second sweater or using a blanket isn't something you should get to complain about when the alternative literally kills people.

[–] lipilee@feddit.nl 16 points 8 months ago (1 children)

"could not"... it's past tense, in 2022. (also in past tense in the article linked.) I expect that as the first panic around energy vs. ru-ua war settled at the end of 2022 / beg. 2023, prices went back to a normal, although probably not pre-war, levels. (at least that's what happened in the netherlands.)

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[–] gapbetweenus@feddit.de 16 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Sorry but if the house is properly heated - there are no Germans living there.

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 28 points 8 months ago (2 children)

If you have old people as neighbours above and below you'll sit at 23°C without ever turning the radiator on in the deepest winter.

[–] Hyperreality@kbin.social 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Old people are more likely to have arthritis or joint pain.

[–] Sidyctism@feddit.de 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Also more likely to spend more time at home.

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[–] lemmyvore@feddit.nl 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Yeah I was going to ask, what is proper indoor temperature for Germany anyway, like 18°C?

[–] Kornblumenratte@feddit.de 4 points 8 months ago

There is no official proper indoor temperature, but the courts settled at > 20 °C in the day and > 18 °C in the night as "normal". If it's not possible to achieve this temperature, the tenant has the right to withhold part of the rent as long as the heating is not fixed. But tenants are allowed to have their appartment as cold as they like as long as they don't grow mold.

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[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 5 points 8 months ago

You need to put on the heater in many homes because otherwise you will get mold. It depends on the house, of course. Doesn't matter how much you cross ventilate. :(

[–] Anekdoteles@feddit.de 4 points 8 months ago

I feel offended that you seem to be right, because I'm a German and I rarely heat at all.

[–] Pechente@feddit.de 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

And meanwhile my neighbour just keeps his windows open in winter since the costs are included in the rent. Fuck him.

[–] KpntAutismus@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

but then the rent gets more expensive for everyone? or am i dumb?

[–] Pechente@feddit.de 17 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

That’s exactly the point. Unfortunately some people don’t think very far. Maybe his intentions aren’t even bad, he’s just beyond sloppy and shouldn’t live unsupervised.

[–] eran_morad@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

I don’t think you’re the dumb one in this.

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[–] rbn@feddit.ch 12 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (7 children)

Unfortunately, the people were neither given nor asked for the "sufficient" temperature. While I don't appeciate that climate measures are forced on the poor only, there's many people that waste a lot of energy on heating in the winter. I don't think 22°C+ should be the norm. If you put on some warm clothes, 18°C are absolutely fine. Personally, I like colder temps indoor and I go for 16°C in the winter as long as there's no mold issues.

[–] RQG@lemmy.world 22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

That assumes everyone experiences heat and coldness the same which isn't the case. I for example need around 20 degrees to feel alright in warm clothing. But on the other hand I am fine in around 43 degrees in the summer and wouldn't use any AC below that.

Also young kids and older people have different needs as well.

If you wanted to regulate this, the time and money needed to care for everyone who get an exception from this rule could likely be used instead to heat everyone's home.

[–] Drusas@kbin.social 9 points 8 months ago

Also, many people with autoimmune conditions experience worsened symptoms when it's hot out.

[–] rbn@feddit.ch 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (10 children)

I don't want to regulate heating. I just find it unfortunate that the survey doesn't mention the target temperature that people couldn't afford. If someone says "it's too expensive nowadays to heat my flat to 25°C" it's a completely different story to "I had to live in constant fear of my water pipes bursting from frost".

We have an ongoing climate crisis and at the same time there's an energy crisis due to the war in Russia. I think keeping that in mind, it should be obvious that we have to cut back a bit in terms of comfort.

If it's indeed more than a third of Germany sitting in their flats freezing that'd be dramatic. But my feeling here it's at least partly people whining around about their horrible fate.

Headlines like this are perfect propaganda for pro Russian politics and in a second step may harm the people in Ukraine - which in many places are REALLY suffering from cold temperatures. Because they are cut off the grid and/or because their flats were damaged in battle.

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[–] Tywele@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (6 children)

For just sitting around 18 or 16°C is way too cold.

Even in warm clothing.

[–] Alto@kbin.social 10 points 8 months ago (1 children)

It's almost as if different people who are used to potentially drastically different climates may have a different amount of tolerance for the cold.

[–] agrammatic@feddit.de 3 points 8 months ago

Yes, but in the absence of other factors, "cold tolerance" is something that can change by habituation.

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[–] waka@feddit.de 8 points 8 months ago

I wish I could do that. Unfortunately my rented flat requires 23°C of heating to prevent mold thanks to bad windows that cannot be fixed due to the house community not wanting to pay for replacing them. And yes I'm practicing proper venting, supported with several devices for timing. I'm so glad I'll be moving out soon.

[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 7 points 8 months ago

If you put on some warm clothes, 18°C are absolutely fine.

Not if you're very young, very old, or have any one of an endless list of health conditions

[–] Chup@feddit.de 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I think there are also different mentalities. Just last winter, I had a similar discussion, where someone explained to me that the room heating is meant to fully offset the temperature, so he can walk summer and winter in shorts, t-shirt and barefoot. So it's 23°C in winter.

While I'm used to wearing jogging pants and socks indoor during winter, so 18°C is fine for me.

Then again, you also have to adjust for personal preferences, different sex, different heating infrastructure etc. But 23°C to go shorts and barefoot in winter was an extreme reveal to me, that people do something like this as well.

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[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

there is studies that concluded an increased risk of getting colds, when the indoor temperature is consistently below 20 °C

[–] lemmyvore@feddit.nl 5 points 8 months ago

There are indeed studies but they place the low cutoff at 18°C not at 20°.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK535294/

For countries with temperate or colder climates, 18 °C has been proposed as a safe and well-balanced indoor temperature to protect the health of general populations during cold seasons.

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[–] gigachad@feddit.de 9 points 8 months ago (5 children)

As someone who rents an appartment, I do not have a sense for heating and what I can afford. I simply get the bills one year later

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[–] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 4 points 8 months ago

It's not like I could before. It's just going to be more expensive again, but I have already kept my heating pretty low.

[–] abbadon420@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago

This was 2022, but I expect this year to be the same or worse.

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