this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2023

205 points (89.6% liked)

World News

38977 readers

3492 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world

Recommendations

How to spot Misinformation and Propaganda

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

quinten@lemmy.world

NewsAutoMod@lemmy.world

jordanlund@lemmy.world

Tenthrow@lemmy.world

little_cow@lemmy.world

lemmyAtom@lemmy.world

FlyingSquid@lemmy.world

205

Israel-Palestine war: Rising Gaza football star and father killed in Israeli strike (www.middleeasteye.net)

submitted 1 year ago by TokenBoomer@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

35 comments fedilink hide all child comments

MiddleEastEye.net

top 35 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] Blapoo@lemmy.ml 29 points 1 year ago

Israel, STOP KILLING CIVILIANS!!

[–] snek@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And as usual Israel doesn't care about non-Jewish humans.

[+] hh93@lemm.ee -31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

And Hamas actually wants to eradicate all Jews - what's your point?

You surely can question stuff like shutting off the power since that's a war crime but if Hamas is using civilian buildings for their military then they make those buildings valid targets during war (other than schools and music festivals which Hamas targeted)

Sure Israel is not a knight in shining armour (far from it) but after what Hamas did they have all right to retaliate and the moral high ground as Hamas deliberately puts their civilians in the line of fire to fuel hate against Israel and make every move very hard for Israel because of that risk of collateral damage.

[–] GONADS125@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your emotional reasoning to justify Isreal's genocide is the same emotional reasoning Hamas uses to justify their terror attacks.

Palestinians have faced ethnic cleansing and expansionism by Isreal, which poses an existential threat for them.

You're saying Isreal is justified in mass murdering innocent civilians because a separate entity (Hamas) poses an existential threat to Isreal.

Well, let's apply that same logic to the opposing side..

By your very own logic, Hamas must be justified in their slaughter of innocent Isrealis, because the IDF and Isreali 'settlers' pose an existential threat them.

Both sides are guilty of horrendous acts, and the innocent civilians on both sides are the ones suffering. And there are ignorant people like yourself who fall into emotional (not logical) reasoning, which makes one feel more justified and sure of themselves.

But in reality, you're clouded by an inherent bias that allows you to dehumanize the innocent Palestinians and justify genocide and war crimes.

The rest of us who are able to maintain perspective are watching in horror at the evil acts being committed by both Isreal and Hamas, and sickened by people like you whose thinking has become so poisoned.

Shame on Hamas. Shame on Isreal. And shame on the people like yourself on both sides, who try to justify putrid acts of evil.

[–] hh93@lemm.ee -5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There is such a thing as a rule of international law that defines what's a valid target during war. A school is not, a music festival also not. Military bases are always a target even if they are within otherwise protected buildings.

I'm not dehumanizing Palestinians. I took part in protests for humanitarian aid in the past and even donated to their cause.

I feel people like you always see an ideal world where there are only perfect solutions. I've yet to read people arguing like that write what would've been a better option after the massacre. Just ignore that that group just slaughtered civilians and took hostages certainly is not an option as they'd feel motivated to do it again and it's only reasonable to seek out justice.
So what's a better option than telling people to evacuate and target bases used by Hamas afterwards? Going in with the army on the ground surely is far worse for everyone involved.

I know that Israel has the upper hand in this and it's always easier to support the underdog but in this both sites are shitty and Israel is by far less so than Hamas. The fact that civilians are there suffering inbetween is completely tragic - but a lot of them are supporting or at least enabling Hamas (which is why Egypt won't open their border for refugees).

The only reason for that attack by Hamas was to end the official talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia for peace in the region - that alone should tell you who has the moral high ground in this conflict. There's a reason Iran is financing Hamas like this since they can't accept a country like Israel existing and if they manage to make peace with more of the surrounding countries then it'll be very hard to change that fact that Israel has a right to exist.

Sure Netanjahu is an asshole and the radical settlers are only pouring oil in the fire but in the end it was Hamas that officially made it their target to eradicate Israel which made them quit any peace talks.

My heart is with the civilians there but in the end it's kind of similar to the allies bombing Germany after their people first supported the Nazis and then at least stayed complicit. Sure there were civilian deaths of innocents, too, but in the big picture it seems justified doesn't it? And I say that as a German living in one of the cities that was hit hardest.

If people are supporting or at least accepting a regime like the one in Gaza that's using them as shields there is only so much you can do if the target is to get rid of that regime.

[–] snek@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Proximity shielding is bullshit and used to justify killing and DEHUMANIZING Palestinians. The idea of people being human shields in their own homes is genocidal bullshit used to justify killing them. Israel tops this list.

I will keep that in CAPS, thanks. I don't care how many times you donated or protested. It doesn't change what Israel does which you sit here defending.

[–] hh93@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago

The idea of people being human shields in their own homes is genocidal bullshit used to justify killing them.

So how do you call it if hamas is building their bases of operation in civilian buildings or launch their rockets from schools and hospitals exactly because they KNOW it's impossible to target them there without also hitting civilians?

Why is egypt not accepting refugees? Because they know that a big part of the palestinians are actually supporting hamas and are not just victims here and they don't want to deal with the risk of those people radicalizing themselves further within Egypt and having to deal with that.

And as for the dehumanizing part: which party did deliberately chose to deliberately attack civilians and not "just" accepted them as collateral damage? Sure the latter is also horrible and should be kept to an absolute minimum but the first is absolutely indefensible. There's a reason why at every other pro-palestine rally right now there are people shouting to exterminate all the jews and why jews are scared wearing their kippah again: this whole thing is not just about standing with civilians in gaza but actually coming from an anti-semitic point a lot of the time.

[–] GONADS125@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Do you even realize that you failed to refute my entire argument? You just wrote a long Red Herring.

Everything you said here is 100% irrelevant to the fact that your logic used to justify the genocide of Palestinians is the same logic used to justify the terror attacks on Isreali citizens.

That was my argument.

Logic doesn't care what your feelings are or what international laws dictate. Your argumemt's framework used to justify Isreal's genocide can be flipped and used in the very same way to justify Hamas' actions. I've already demonstrated that above.

I could argue against your other points here, but that's not necessary when you're breaking the sacred law of non-contradiction. You're argument can't be true for Israel and false for Hamas. Your argument is invalid.

No matter what new claims you stake, it won't change the fact that the core of your argument is invalid. You don't keep adding onto a compromised foundation; you rebuild.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago

Ah, we went from right to self defence to right to retaliate? What's next?

[–] snek@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I thought never again includes Palestinians. Guess I was wrong.

[–] badbytes@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Israel is the aggressor

[–] sheev@lemmy.today 12 points 1 year ago

Regrettable casualties are sometimes an unfortunate consequence of maintaining order and security in the galaxy. The Empire remains resolute in our mission.

[–] hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest 11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Am I the only one seeing this? Is it... normal for 3 comments in a row to have exactly balanced numbers of up and down votes?

That's a very strange coincidence.

[–] null@slrpnk.net 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Votes are public and there's no fuzzing like on Reddit, so shenanigans are pretty unlikely.

[–] hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I run my own instance so I'm always a little paranoid that I fucked it up somehow. Or like, maybe theres a known bug that I don't know about, or a compatibility issue between versions/platforms.

But as another commenter mentioned, at worse it's some loser botting but more likely it really was just a coincidence.

[–] LaLiLuLuCo@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Shenanigans are actually super easy if you care.

[–] null@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Can you elaborate?

[–] UnspecificGravity@lemmings.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can log into like 5 accounts and basically put anything you want to the top of any comment chain given how low the total vote numbers on lemmy tend to be. An actual astroturfing group could curate the entire front page for pennies.

[–] null@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Sure, but again, it's all public record, so the patterns become pretty easy to spot when you see brand new accounts vote-brigading, or always the same 5 alts that are doing it.

For example: https://kbin.social/m/kbinMeta/t/134579/Call-out-post-for-a-particular-karma-farmer-on-kbin-social

[–] LaLiLuLuCo@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's public record but it doesn't take much effort to obfuscate it's happening. That's why reddit fuzzed votes in the first place.

Chatgpt makes it really easy for the people inclined to write scripts to post comments and repost articles and spin up dozens or hundreds of accounts.

Captchas help but someone committed can throw $100 in and get many many accounts if they don't want to do it themselves. IPv6 addresses to proxy the bots through are easy to get by the thousand too.

You also don't use brand new accounts you roll them over the course of a few weeks or months.

[–] UnspecificGravity@lemmings.world 2 points 1 year ago

And if you don't want to actually DO any of that work you can just hire a service that already has the accounts to do it for you.

[–] UnspecificGravity@lemmings.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You can log into like 5 accounts and basically put anything you want to the top of and comment chain given how low the total vote numbers on lemmy tend to be. An actual astroturfing group could curate the entire front page for pennies.

[–] LaLiLuLuCo@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

The other commenter got to it already.

[–] GONADS125@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Probably vote brigading by toxic hexbear users' alts or some other tankies.

It's also a pretty divided topic, especially with the fact that the nature of the conflict leads some people to abandon logic for emotional reasoning. Emotional reasoning makes people feel more sure of themselves and justified in their beliefs and actions.

[–] Sooperstition@lemmy.one -4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are the hexbears hiding under your bed or something?

[–] GONADS125@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Nope. They're too busy circle-jerking each other while they vote brigade and spread propoganda.

[–] snek@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What are you using to view Lemmy? I use Sync and can't see up and down votes, only the sum.

[–] hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest 6 points 1 year ago

I'm pretty sure it's the official web UI but I use Memmy on my phone which also shows up and down votes separately

[–] sizzler@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

It's tokenboomer, expect highjinks

[–] Duxon@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Is it just me or is this community heavily biased? I wonder if this pro-Hamas stance is really present on Lemmy or if there's some bot activity going on.

[–] Mrkawfee@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

If you look outside the US or European MSM, you'll find the world is repulsed by Israel's mass murder of civilians.

[–] UnspecificGravity@lemmings.world 8 points 1 year ago

Being against blowing up innocent people in their homes is about as far from "pro hamas" as you can be.

[–] WhiteHawk@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

Maybe it would be better if they were getting paid. I'm pretty sure the sad truth is they are spreading all this propaganda because they genuinely believe it.

[–] LaLiLuLuCo@lemmy.ca -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Lemmy is mostly lefties despite a few glaring counter examples.

Theres a lot of huffing gas going on on the left with near zero historical context or on-the-ground understanding. People still repeat "River t0 the Sea" as if it's not a literal call to genocide for militant nationalists. Instead they post the decolonization blog. Meanwhile even Palestinian Authority reps and members of the negotiating team for the last n peace deals are publishing opinion pieces that the phrase is intrinsically a call to violent genocide and the Palestinian supporters really need to check who they are getting their "facts" from. It's basically on siding with a terrorist org but because some people think there is a noble goal beneath it that makes it OK to chant.

There's also a lot of people too young to remember how the West and East conducts sieges in dense urban areas. It's not good or pretty to look at.

Also like most people outside of the region don't seem to get that Palestinians and Israelis are both more or less the same ethnicity (Semitic though the term has fallen out of usage outside of describing the language roots of Arab and Hebrew and like half a dozen other languages) and look the same. There isn't a skin color component. That's projection from Americans/Westerners who mostly see Ashkenazi jews who tend to avoid light for various reasons and are pretty pale. Once they are back in the middle east everyone turns a shade of olive/brown and you couldn't pick a jew or an Arab out of a lineup if they didn't have religious clothing on to make it easier.