this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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[–] RaincoatsGeorge@lemmy.zip 153 points 1 year ago (11 children)

I’ve been tracking the comments on all of this across various websites to see what people’s thoughts are. This genuinely might be the most contentious issue of our age. There are people who are vehemently pro Palestine and can dismiss the loss of civilian lives as’ what do you expect when people are pushed like this’ . Then others are hugely pro Israel and see this as an unprovoked attack by a terrorist group and any retaliation is justified.

I think everyone’s shitty here. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They use terrorist practices and target civilians. That’s a terrorist organization. There’s no discussion on that point. Israel is a right wing authoritarian state that regularly commits war crimes. The total Palestinian body count far exceeds the death toll from this attack by orders of magnitude so we can’t pretend like Israel was minding its own business and was attacked.

I don’t think you can point to one or the other as being the true hero or the true victim. It’s the greatest grey area of all time.

I absolutely condemn the Palestinians and Hamas for this act. I absolutely condemn the Israelis for their continued mistreatment and violence towards Palestinians. One will say they only act this way because of the behavior of the other. But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start and end.

The only thing that is certain is that there will be far more blood shed and every dead Israeli will be met with 10 dead Palestinians. I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict. And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it. With the US protecting Israel no other Arab countries will dare intervene militarily. If the Israelis occupy Gaza it’s going to quickly become a quagmire with a never ending insurgency. It will be costly and in ten years Israel will be more unsafe then they were today.

There’s no good answers or good parties here. Just disgusting human nature and the consequences of half baked racist geopolitics from the 40s.

[–] Ddhuud@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago (5 children)

But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start

The Brits

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[–] twisted28@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

Only one group has thousands of people astroturfing on their behalf which would skew organic support

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[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

This is why I mainly blame the US and Europe at this point.

Both sides in this situation are controlled by the most disgusting kind of sociopath and the only way to stop this is real (with teeth, not just bullshit talk) international pressure on both sides.

Instead there is real pressure on one side only, by declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation (which they are), whilst without pressure on the other side, the boot of Israel on Palestinian necks creates every day new people with nothing to lose, for whom joining an internationally labelled terrorist organisation is an actual step-up from their situation.

So the worst kind of Israelis have nothing to lose from joining the military or colonates and stealing from and murdering Palestinians because there are zero international sanctions on it, the Israeli authorities fully support it and they have overwhelming force, whilst the worst kind of Palestinians have nothing to lose from joining Hamas and murdering Israelis because they have nothing to lose since the actions of the above mentioned Israelis have made their baseline situation be "a life of misery treated as less than human" and even made any organisation that resists Israel (even one as bad as Hamas) be relativelly prestigious and an actual step-up for many in that environment.

Unless the "solution" envisioned by US and European leaders is genocide of the Palestinians, then both sides have to be put in a situation were they do have something to lose by doing what they've been doing and that means keeping on the pressure on Hamas and extending the sanctions to the Israeli government.

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[–] emax_gomax@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Pretty much the only unbiased take anyone can have. Both sides f*cking suck. I disagree that this is the turning point tho. We've been here before and we'll stay here until both sides come to the table and actually discuss a peaceful resolution to the conflict. It'll never happen with hamas so they have to go. It'll never happen with the current Israeli government so they need to be replaced with more diplomatic leaders. Neither is gonna happen tho, the continued conflict just puts more dependence on the bad actors that keep escalating it. Honestly I see hamas cracking before Israel softens but who knows if or when that'll happen. I wouldn't be surprised if this conflict continued far beyond my lifetime.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago

I disagree that this is the turning point tho.

Turning point, no, but I can see this being, in retrospect, an erm fulcrum point. Like what 9/11 did to the US, where the question "why do they hate us", besides further idiocy, also led to some legitimate insight into how the US' actions affect the world and provoke reactions, similarly the notion "we bred that monster" might get some more wide-spread traction in Israel.

...and yes this very much is a 9/11 moment for Israel, worse, actually. Caught completely on surprise, the most Jewish deaths and that in a short time-span since the Holocaust, much larger percentage of the population, it's definitely a defining moment.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 119 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I don't know how this will do anything but result in another attack. Making people that desperate is not a solution that will work well. Plus, my fellow Jews should know better than intentionally starving desperate people.

[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 62 points 1 year ago (8 children)

I have a feeling that was the plan all along

Intentionally antagonize the Palestinians that's already been antagonized for decades .... push them over the edge to make them make the first move.

Then once the first move is made .... move in and completely annihilate them under the guise of justified retaliation.

When it comes to one of the most well organized, well trained, well funded militaries and intelligence organizations in the world .... I don't think anyone can surprise them with a major attack.

The Israelis knew this would happen .... because they know how they will respond.

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[–] CMDR_Horn@lemmy.ml 33 points 1 year ago (2 children)

starving Palestinians out like this, will force them into the desperate move attacking Israel. Israel can therefore declare them as terrorists and shoot them indiscriminately.  I hope that I’m wrong and this isn’t a tactical decision

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[–] HidingCat@kbin.social 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Exactly, what did they think they'll achieve but even more resentment and hate?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I honestly don't know, but Neteyahu is one of the most evil people in the 21st century, so I have very little hope for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of this.

Some people are bandying about some statistic out there of a majority of Palestinians approving of Hamas. First of all, that was before this happened, and secondly, approval is not the same as aid. The vast majority of them had nothing to do with this and are caught in the middle. Now at least 500 are dead in this current conflict.

[–] HidingCat@kbin.social 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not just Palestinians, innocent Israelis are going to die from these decisions. I was following the judiciary saga in Israel a little, and I hope Israelis will eventually win the fight against this tyrant wannabe.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't follow their politics closely, but I still can't believe Netanyahu clawed his way back into power after basically everyone else in government, even fellow hard right-wingers, banded up to oust him. That, plus him having faced all those corruption charges. Wtf is up with politics in Israel that allowed him to claw his way back in so quickly like some sort of alien parasite?

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[–] sun_is_ra@sh.itjust.works 69 points 1 year ago (6 children)

So they will kill all people in Gaza?

[–] nocturne213@lemm.ee 72 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I always thought that is what Israel wanted anyway.

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[–] roo@lemmy.one 44 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, it's an unattended concentration camp, and they hope everyone dies there.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 68 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Has been for decades...

It's over 2 million in like 140 sq miles...

They don't have their own police, don't get to vote (Israel won't let them have an election), aren't in control of their own utilities, don't have freedom of movement, and get treated as subhuman.

And Israel wants everyone to believe there's no reason for Palestinians to hate Israel's government.

Put people in those conditions and refuse to treat them as humans, and some of them are going to stop acting like humans. It's basically sociology and would happen to any population in those conditions

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[–] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

If history's taught us anything, it's that the good guys always indiscriminately target civilians!

[–] Chariotwheel@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, killing some and hope the rest will try to flee to Egypt at which point Gaza is free for the taking.

Or well, maybe, they hope that in desperation people will try to rush the blockade, at which point they just kill them. Hamas awful actions have given Israel plenty of ammunition to keep everyone else on the world stage away for a while, no matter what they do now.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Hamas awful actions

Didn't happen in a vacuum...

There's reasons people are willing to die in a war they have no chance of winning.

It's stand up for your people or watch them essentially be tortured slowly to death.

[–] Chariotwheel@kbin.social 20 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I mean, at the same time I can't support mass rape. Or rape in general.

Also not a fan of carrying around naked corpses of multilated people. Not a fan.

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[–] BeautifulMind@lemmy.world 59 points 1 year ago (6 children)

So if it's a total blockade now, what was it before? (hint: it was also a blockade then, has been since 2007)

It's saddening to see Israel's military (which is not Israel) attack civilians and civilian infrastructure in retaliation for Hamas (which is not Palestine) having attacked civilians and civilian infrastructure- this is all a shit-show of punishing the innocent to get the other side to back down and it will never end.

[–] rbesfe@lemmy.ca 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They were allowing them access to electricity and food supplies before

[–] Aqarius@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Other nation on land you claim

box them in, stop food shipments

Wait, that kinda reminds me of something recent...

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[–] Jumi@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago (20 children)
[–] InternetTubes@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's like a back-and-forth game of "how many war crimes do you think this will allow us to get away with now".

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[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 37 points 1 year ago (29 children)
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[–] thorcik@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So, a minister of a Jewish state compares another nation to animals and decides that genocide is the proper solution Ironic.gif

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[–] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

Making one giant concentration camp.

Huh.

[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 30 points 1 year ago

Israel has announced a “total” blockade of the already besieged Gaza Strip, including a ban on food and water, after Hamas carried out the biggest attack on the country in decades.

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said on Monday authorities would cut electricity and block the entry of food and fuel as part of “a complete siege” on Hamas-run Gaza, where about 2.3 million people live in one of the most densely populated areas in the world.

der crossing points; the third is controlled by Egypt.

“We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed,” Gallant said in a video statement.

Israel’s chief military spokesperson, Daniel Hagari, told reporters on Monday that Israel has “control” of its communities following Saturday’s mass incursion of Hamas fighters into its territory.

Hagari said there had been some isolated incidents on Monday morning, but that “at this stage, there is no fighting in the communities”.

He added that “there might still be terrorists in the region”.

Israeli tanks and drones were guarding openings in the fence to prevent more infiltrations, Hagari said, adding that 15 of 24 border communities had been evacuated, with the rest expected to be evacuated over the next 24 hours.

Earlier, Hamas spokesperson Abdel-Latif al-Qanoua told The Associated Press news agency that the group’s fighters continued to battle outside Gaza and had captured more Israelis as recently as Monday morning.

He said the group aims to free all Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, which in the past has agreed to lopsided exchange deals in which it released large numbers of prisoners for individual captives or even the remains of soldiers.

SOURCE: AL JAZEERA AND NEWS AGENCIES

[–] Eezyville@sh.itjust.works 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

All those who condemned Hamas for attacking civilians, I wonder if they will have the same energy when Israel starves civilians?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Yes. I condemn both. And I don't play the "which is worse" game. They are both unacceptable evils. Israel needs to stop this immediately and, at the very least, negotiate a peace if not some sort of solution to the whole issue (hopefully including at least some right of return) and Hamas needs to return the hostages.

You don't need to pick a side when both sides are committing atrocities.

[–] darthelmet@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago (9 children)

One of these “sides” could unilaterally peacefully end the conflict. For the other side choosing “peace” just means submitting to living under an occupying force as eternal second class citizens. insert mlk quote here.

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[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm sure this will in no way backfire.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It'll escalate the conflict...

Which is what Israels government wants...

So yeah, it's not going to backfire, it's going to do exactly what they want.

Same way using the IDF to make sure Palestinians couldn't fight back against "settlers" just escalated the conflict. If Israel wanted peace, that backfired. But they don't want peace. They want a war so they can use it as an excuse to expand their borders again.

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[–] HidingCat@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Welp, whatever goodwill and sympathy I had for Israel just went poof. Less than 24 hours too, gotta be a record for them.

[–] DarkGamer@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

Funny, I feel the same way about Palestine. Their army of terrorists was raping young women next to their dead civilian friends at a concert promoting peace and love, while slaughtering unarmed edm kids trying to escape in the hundreds:

Others were captured and bound and kidnapped. “I saw videos with a male getting held by a group of Arab kids. Like, they’re like 16, 17,” one survivor recalled. “They’re kids, but they’re young men already, and they’re holding this guy, and he looks as his girlfriend is being mounted on a bike and driven away from him. God knows what she’s going to experience … Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends bodies, dead bodies.”
Several of these rape victims appear to have been later executed. Others were taken to Gaza. In photographs released online, you can see several paraded through the city’s streets, blood gushing from between their legs.
One survivor who’d returned to the scene later in the day to look for his friends spoke, in a breaking voice, of what he’d seen. Of the bodies, mainly of young women, lying cold and mutilated. Of scantily clad corpses, many of whom appeared to have been shot at point-blank. Of cars, perforated by bullets or blown up by grenades.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account

Closing the borders and shutting off supplies provided by the nation they attacked is enough to make you lose sympathy for victims of such acts? Your sense of moral equivalence seems broken.

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[–] randon31415@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am not sure they understand what total means. Hamas didn't get those rockets from Israel - hense there must be an unmonitored way in from Egypt that Hamas controls.

If there is, all food comes now from Hamas = Palestinians support Hamas more. If that gets cut, videos of mass starvation will eventually pull other Muslim countries into the conflict.

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[–] zerfuffle@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 year ago (7 children)

People want revolutionaries under constant oppression and inequality to fight a "fair, modern war" against one of the most well-funded militaries in the region.

Are people stupid? Palestine, unlike Ukraine, doesn't have the privilege of fighting an equal war.

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[–] Kofu@lemmy.ml 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, normal occupation stuff then? They have very little drinking water already.

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Having access to a few litres for drinking, cooking and minimal hygiene is still a far stretch away from having no access to clean water.

Typical water use in developed countries ranges between 100 litres and 400 litres a day per person, but you can get by temporarily with as little as 15 litres per person and day. https://www.who.int/teams/environment-climate-change-and-health/water-sanitation-and-health/environmental-health-in-emergencies/humanitarian-emergencies

Fully cutting the water supply like announced is a severe escalation of the humanitarian situation and beyond the "normal occupation stuff."

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