this post was submitted on 16 Aug 2022
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Matrix 2.0 will be at least 24x - 1400x faster depending on what you're measuring because of a Rust reimplementation, and better chat loads and room joins. Mobile, VoIP + video, and 3rd Room improve. (matrix.org)
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by snek_boi@lemmy.ml to c/opensource@lemmy.ml
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[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 25 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (7 children)

Am I the only one who thinks chat apps are making the internet kinda worse by locking up useful information behind a system that can't be indexed\searched through on search engines? I know chatrooms could be odd to have appear on google searches but so many orgs and software projects now use discord etc as their support section so resolving an issue once doesn't help people in the future searching for the solution.

with that being said im glad matrix is improving

EDIT: apparently this is being worked on https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-public-archive thanks @testman@lemmy.ml for linking this. Now they just need to also start working on Threads which im assuming is already on their roadmap

[–] onlooker@lemmy.ml 30 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's not chat apps that are making things worse, it's the various companies and organizations using these apps for support channels instead of easily searchable software like forums.

[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Fair.

Although it would be nice for discord\matrix to include a server option so they can be indexed by search engines so the companies that use them for support can enable the feature

[–] blkpws@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

no, thats support chat to talk with a company I meant having a server option so for example if its a lemmy support server and some has asked "how to install lemmy" when googling "how to install lemmy" the chat of where it was answered could appear. but that would defeat the purpose of E2EE I guess.

Chatterbox is really cool though but the pricing seems insane i wonder how they calculate a "monthly active user"

[–] testman@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

not sure what that dude meant, but I believe that this is more in the area of what you are looking for: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-public-archive

[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

yess thats amazing!

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It's a mixed bag. Only having a forum option reduces accessibility some for people who get anxious about putting their communication in a more permanent format. Not everyone wants their n00b questions (we all have them) indexed for all the world to see. That said, it's good to have a forum-like option that is search engine friendly to avoid repeat questions as much as possible. I remember that the Rust language had some people tasked specifically with curating an up-to-date and comprehensive body of knowledge on Stack Overflow. That apparently has helped people significantly with the learning curve of Rust.

[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

but most forums dont even have a Real Name section and people use usernames just like chat apps. i doubt many people dont ask questions on forum because of that I just think the chat apps are more common because they got investments to make their UI\UX super convenient and pretty (which i think because of the fediverse and lemmy especially we now will have the best of both worlds)

I hope lemmy includes a follow post and follow comment thread feature so we can replace stack overflow with it

[–] downdaemon@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

There's software that mirrors public chats into static searchable pages, I can't remember the name but I've used it

[–] poVoq@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Even if the chat software would allow public searching, the format would be still terrible for finding the right solutions with out asking the same question over and over again.

Hence I quite like the idea of the new chat feature of Discourse forums that easily allow turning a chat discussion into a forum thread and visa versa.

[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

True.

I haven't seen that feature (I don't use discourse very often) but that sounds great. Hopefully Matrix adopts something similar.

[–] sibachian@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

chats are fine. the real problem is facebook groups that replaced traditional forums. i mean, it's essentially just a simplified discussion board designed around "the flow", and as thus, is no way to share and distribute information, especially since you can't really navigate it in a way to find the right answer. so every day it's the same five questions asked over and over again, and with facebooks rules on trade for non-corporate entities, it's essentially killing some hobby industries. though, you're right in that a lot of people have also moved to discord as some kind of forum replacement, and it's even worse for the purpose of information distribution.

not that reddit or lemmy are any better. i mean, they suffer the same problem due to the way information is meant to work on them, yet people use them as forum replacements.

basically, the real problem is that people have abandoned traditional forums and use these convenient platforms as replacements. but it loses a lot of functionality along the way. and it's a sacrifice that most people just don't care about due to the convenience.

[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

reddit isnt a great replacement but googling anything and adding "reddit" to the end is really useful. I'm not sure how well lemmy gets crawled though. I can't seem to find anything on lemmy from adding lemmy to the end of a search. Even if I add lemmy.ml "lemmy.ml" or :lemmy.ml :/

[–] MadScientist@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

the beauty with matrix being open-source and decentralized is that anyone can just implement indexability themselves, as someone in the thread has already given an example of

though i don't think support servers are a good idea in the first place

[–] liminal@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] nxlemmy@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

interesting, i didnt know this was a thing either but is it scraped by search engines?

[–] liminal@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The pages are plain html, so yeah? Now I'm unsure if search engines can really scrape the entire post history because pagination is done with anchors, I'm not sure how robust anchors are.

An anchor looks like this: https://view.matrix.org/room/!OGEhHVWSdvArJzumhm:matrix.org/?anchor=$c2Qx9k8CB4WBrNsIxW4WxlZ1MqBvYS-tfGFsA7QkxMg&offset=60

[–] liminal@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Yup this doesn't seem robust at all. Any message anchor= just points to a message UUID, which means there is a page, showing adjacent messages, for every message. The pages are mostly duplicates.

[–] hburb3ri@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Here I am waiting for the big p2p update as well. I really like the direction Matrix is going. Moderation still needs a lot of work in the short term though, as it's a pretty big issue currently. Moderation is also extra challenging given it's decentralized as well.

[–] marmulak@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I actually think it's handled very well

[–] hburb3ri@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If you've been on Matrix long enough, you'll see rooms get mercilessly raided. Often multiple rooms at once. It's a very common complaint amongst admins.

[–] marmulak@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

What I find convenient about admining a room is that you can easily block users and then automatically delete their message history as well, so since you can undo whatever they do, even if they are able to join and succeed temporarily, in the long term their efforts amount to nothing.

You also have fine-grained control over permissions so you can even make it like IRC or XMPP where rooms with severe moderation problems can be made so the default role when a user joins does not allow them to send messages until you give them voice, so to speak.

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I wonder how much this will affect the Element client. It's been very slow whenever I've used it

[–] snek_boi@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It will affect the client. The Rust-SDK, the Sliding Sync, and the progressive loading will all improve it.

[–] azron@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

The client has definitely started chugging even on flagship phones.

[–] poVoq@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago

The automatically load balancing SFU system for video conferencing sounds really cool.

[–] radamant@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

And here I recently nuked my personal synapse server because it was too bloated and switched to dendrite. I didn't know matrix 2.0 would be this awesome

[–] poVoq@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

maybe try conduit.rs

[–] radamant@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I mean, dendrite works and compiles way faster and is way more complete than conduit. It's not like I think dendrite is bad, it's that I thought (and would prefer) that it replaced synapse completely as the main server software.

[–] poVoq@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

I was actually of the impression that Conduit was (is?) way more complete. It works fine as a homeserver for some bridges that I run on my server for a few months now and was much easier to set up than Dendrite.

[–] lisko@sopuli.xyz 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Gotta go fast

[–] poVoq@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Speeding up a slug, now 1000x faster but still slow 😏

[–] snek_boi@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

Let's evaluate your analogy's internal logic. Take this website. If we average all the reported speeds of slugs, we end up with 0.004925727 m/s.

That is, we add up all the speeds 0.013+0.000023+0.0028+0.013+0.0024+0.00086+0.013+0.0024+0.0018+0.0034+0.0015 = 0.054183 and divide them by 11: 0.004925727.

Now multiply that by 1000: 4.925 m/s, which is 17.73 km/h. That's double the speed at which I run, but it's slow compared to car or train speeds.

The upper bound is 13 m/s (0.013 m/s * 1000) or 47 km/h, a respectable increase. That's as fast as the speed limit in my neighborhood.

The lower bound is a meager 0.023 m/s. That's 0.082 km/h, a pathetic result.

Your analogy's internal logic is valid.

[–] lisko@sopuli.xyz 1 points 2 years ago

so true

[–] sibachian@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

This is not really helpful considering the flagship client is Element, which runs on electron. It's a huge bottleneck.

[–] snek_boi@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

I agree that Electron is a bottleneck. That's something they'll have to deal with. However, there's a small difference between what this post is saying and what you're saying: "24x - 1400x fafster depending on what you're measuring" is quite different to "[the changes are] not really helpful". Regardless, I'm glad to see that they're embracing Rust in some way, distancing themselves from javascript. I hope the SDK will be good enough for a bustling ecosystem of efficient clients (and servers!). I'm also glad that people like you and I are making it clear that we value the reduction of sludge, we value efficiency and therefore inclusion for everyone, including those who have devices that aren't that powerful.

[–] sexy_peach@feddit.de 1 points 2 years ago

isn't their server a huge mess as well? Being very resource hungry and all?

[–] Helix@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

But I thought they were reimplementing the server in Go with Dendrite?

[–] nachtigall@feddit.de 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Rust in the title probably refers to the section where they talk about integrating matrix-rust-sdk into Element.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Yeah, this just looks like optimizations to the Python codebase. Surprise surprise, Python is perfectly capable of large gains, at least up to a point. Of course, it's still not going to be on the same level as Rust or Go.

[–] rhymepurple@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

Dendrite is listed in the post - https://matrix.org/blog/2022/08/15/the-matrix-summer-special-2022#dendrite--p2p

Dendrite plays an important role in our future strategy as it is also the homeserver implementation used for embedded homeservers, P2P development and experimentation. In addition to being able to scale up, we have also successfully scaled down, with the Element P2P demos proving that an embedded Dendrite homeserver can run comfortably on an iOS or Android device.

I didn't realize that Dendrite was planned to be used for P2P. I thought it was just another option you had to host a homeserver. That makes this a bit more exciting.