We need to abolish right to work laws. Or at least restructure them. I shouldn't be able to be fired for literally any reason they can come up with. Even fast food jobs should have contracts with certain clauses to protect the workers. You sign it when you start and you can't be let go until it expires or you break it.
this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Not that I disagree with your premise, but that's an "at will" law area, not "right to work" (can't be forced to join a union/pay union dues in a unionized workplace).
To add, some argue at will is fair because it goes both ways, but it definitely doesn't. If your employer fires you suddenly for no reason, there's no real consequences. If you quit suddenly for no reason, you can get blackballed.
Yeah I knew it wasn't the right wording I just couldn't remember exactly what it was called.
But that's exactly what I was bringing up. I'm supposed to work a 2 week notice but they can fire me instantly because I didn't smile at the manager when walking into work.
If your employer fires you suddenly for no reason, there’s no real consequences.
Depends on the industry and location. If they do that a few times in relatively small industry, or in a captured but small market, word gets around and suddenly that company has difficulty hiring in the future.
The question I have about people who are against at will is the flip side, which is being locked into a hellish job for some set period. I have had jobs that deteriorated my mental health. With at will I can just walk out the door whenever I want. Not so if both employer and employee are bound by some cool down counter clause.
Even without abuse there is opportunity cost to staying at your company. I've seen family members on the spot quit to care for people they cared about, but not people anyone would consider close enough to be covered by anything like FMLA, like your best friend's child. I quit jobs that interfered with my college education.
It sucks to be let go, but I don't think people consider if it might make more suffering yo be forced to stay. I can't see a situation where companies have to give notice, but employees don't. Sure I guess employees can sabotage their workplaces to be sent home with pay, but what a fantastic way to catch a charge and screw yourself over forever.
It's food for thought.
The "cool down" period in many cases is just a few days when it's the employee resigning. If your job sucks so much that you can't stomach being at it for another week, you've got other problems.
That's kind of my point? That some workplaces are toxic or you otherwise need to abandon your job because of external reasons. Maybe it's just because I'm older (mid-30s), but I don't know a single person who hasn't run into a fuck this job moment for whatever reason. Either because it was deteriorating their mental health, or they prioritized their personal life. My life fell into a coma and I literally got on a plane thr moment I knew. I told my boss I wouldn't be in and he could fire me or not, I don't care. My brother had no one in that moment. I was lucky my bosses allowed me to keep my job while I acted as his advocate to get him care until the rest of my family could get there, but what if I wasn't allowed because of some BS notice contract? Which at will I can just quit fuck it. With no at-will there would definitely be some punishment. This scenario may not overcome the good of getting ride of at will, but I think people should consider it. Consider what it would be like to trapped in a place you hate with a hostile work environment.
Lol we've got protections for all those cases which mean that you don't have to lose your job because of temporary issues. Also if the circumstances at your workplace are serious enough you can resign with just cause without any notice period.
What's more, if you have left over PTO, when terminating your contract there are two options: either the your employer pays you for the PTO you haven't used, or you use it. In my case for example I have enough PTO saved to cover the notice period.
I don't know about the rest of the EU, but in my country the employee can ALWAYS walk out, they just lose the pay for the non-worked days.
That's why I brought up a restructuring. The ability to quit whenever should always be an option but being fired without notice for anything that isn't just gross incompetence/negligence. I should be able to quit because my manager pissed me off. I shouldn't get fired because I passed the manager off.
It's not that I disagree, it's just that I can never see a scenario where both sides don't have the same power. If you can quit at any time, then rhe employer can fire at any time. If you the employer has you give notice, so do you. I've never hear any stories online in different countries of the notice period not being both ways. And despite what one dude said to me sometimes weeks long, not a week. That would be actual hell.
In practice, employment contracts are always good for employees and usually bad for employers. You don't want to be locked into a job? Then don't sign a contract that locks you in. Just refuse, as just about any sane person would.
Employers WOULD refuse to be locked in, except sane governments force them to. Sane governments do not force regular citizens into indentured servitude.
My company initiated a hiring freeze last November, just after my group lost 3 team members. Then in February they did layoffs, my group was not effected. The hiring freeze is now lifted, but what we were never told is that when they did the layoffs, they also “erased” any positions that were open prior to the layoffs, including the positions that were open in my group before the hiring freeze the previous November. So those jobs are just gone, and the slack that my group has picked up? That’s just the new normal now. It’s bullshit.
So you're doing more work for the same pay? If it's not in the job description/contract, then they can fuck off.
Every (US) job description I've had save one had a line to the effect of "... and other duties as required by management." Not to follow would be considered insubordination and could lead to termination with cause. Job description in this case is just a broad-stroke outline of what the job is supposed to entail.
The "save one" was a job with a strong union presence. In that case, going outside my job description could lead to me and my manager being in trouble.
And this is why unions are so important. A union for a former job of mine also made a big deal about not only duties beyond the job description but workload beyond normal.
I once worked a call centre during late shift and my manager asked us to clean the bathrooms. I told him they can hire a janitor because I won't be cleaning anything since I wasn't hired to clean. Didn't have to clean the bathrooms. Sometimes standing up for yourself works
And you're currently interviewing yes?
Shit like this is why people are quitting.
Quiet Cutting is also done in ways the article is not mentioning. We used to call them hiring freezes. In the mortgage industry where there are position with higher attrition, they simply allow the employees to quit and they never rehire that position.
I practice quiet shitting while at work. I don't let anyone know I'm leaving the office, and I head down the elevator to the downstairs bathroom. It's a nice break from work. I recommend it to anyone.
I take the opposite approach. When I shit at work, I make sure they can hear it.
Companies are firing pleoke? Weird.
Fuck Newscorp lol
Quite quitting sounds like business as usual.