this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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No Stupid Questions

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What evolutional benefit is that?

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[–] girl@lemm.ee 63 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m not sure of the answer, but generally not everything has to have an evolutionary benefit. As long as it isn’t detrimental to a species reproducing, it will continue to exist in the population.

[–] driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br 44 points 1 year ago (2 children)

People think of evolution as it's needed straight A+ to pass, when C is enough.

[–] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So instead of “C’s get Degrees” it’s “C’s make Babies”

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Technically, Ds make babies.

[–] dreadgoat@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Also what's the definition of "passing?" The dinos we are talking about are extinct, they didn't "pass" for long. A+ creatures things like alligators, ants, and crabs. On average a given species survives around a million years before going extinct. How long do you have to exist before you're considered a successful species?

[–] winky88@startrek.website 9 points 1 year ago

100+ million years qualifies as right in the middle of "for long" in my book. The fact that an asteroid or comet of biblical proportions wiped them out has nothing to do with evolutionary effectiveness. Most of the animals that did survive either A) lived in water or B) lived underground.

[–] girl@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don’t think science really categorizes species based on how successful they were. “Passing” in this sense refers to the individuals in the species who were able to reproduce, not the population as a whole. Most dinosaurs “passed” until ecological conditions killed them off, they didn’t die because they failed to adapt. A lot of the species that survived mass extinction events were just lucky, rather than having some ideal set of characteristics that allowed them to survive.

[–] dreadgoat@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

I agree that most species surviving mass extinction events were just lucky, but I think that also says something special about the ones that survived MULTIPLE events (ants), or those that effectively re evolved into existence after extinction events (crabs)

[–] loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There was an evolutionary trend among carnivorous theropods that the larger they grew the less they used their arms to grab the prey: If you can either inflict a deadly bite or grab the whole neck in your jaw, grabbing with claws becomes unnecessary. Two lineages took it particularly far: in abelisaurids, such as carnitaurus, the arms became vestigial and in some cases completely disappeared.

In a separate theropod lineage, T-Rexes, while much bigger than any abelisaurid and with a bigger head, did not have vestigial arms. Their arms, tho tiny, still had bones that locked into each-other and seemed to have muscle attachments. There's been several theories as to why: This certainly meant that T-Rexes still used their arms, but how? The main theory is that juvenile T-Rexes had a different morphology as their adult counterpart. They already hunted, but much smaller preys, and with a different technique, so they would've still used their arms. On top of that, there's the idea that adult T-Rexes might've slept on their bellies and their arms would've been useful to bush themselves back up.

Another reason for T-Rex's large heads, in addition to their big jaws being terribly efficient, is that it may help with placing their center of gravity over the knees, which is useful to keep balance while walking or running.

[–] flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Whaaat? As if a trex could push itself anywhere with it's arms, that's ridiculous!

[–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

We only know what their bones look like. Maybe they were swole af from all those T-Rex push-ups.

[–] loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

I know how unlikely this sounds, but I didn't make it up, it's an actual theory.

https://zenodo.org/record/3674749

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/if-t-rex-fell-how-did-it/

[–] MrPoopyButthole@lemm.ee 25 points 1 year ago

Keeps them from masturbating, allows them to transmute their sexual energy into raw power when not actively engaging in sex.

[–] teft@startrek.website 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They probably didn't need their arms for how they hunted. Same as modern birds. Think of how an eagle kills and then eats its prey.

[–] deranger@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Birds use their arms extensively though, they’re wings

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Sauropods had tiny heads and huge legs. So it varies. Evolution is an amazing thing.

[–] bl4ckblooc@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Ah man I thought this was on dad jokes for a minute.

[–] incendiaryperihelion@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

arms wont just "go away" when an organism evolves to use them less, and eventually would become vestigial. However I think that this question relies on a sweeping generalization that is not backed by evidence, only supported by media and the way we usually see dinos depicted

[–] ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So just because a living thing has a certain feature doesn't mean that feature is advantageous. It simply means it doesn't hinder reproduction. Dinosaurs in particular are also difficult to study since we really only have bones to go off of. Animals alive today often look nothing like their bone structure suggests so we might be thinking of dinosaurs all wrong.

From some googling, it seems scientists are guessing as the heads became larger, the arms became smaller. Their giant heads are thought to provide bone crushing jaw strength. Maybe their giant heads used up so much energy that maintaining complex limbs was too much. Another thought is that they ate in packs and limbs would get in the way while pack eating.

[–] Delighted@ttrpg.network 1 points 1 year ago

The tail plumage of peacocks for example is the opposite of advantageous in everyday life. But since it's sexually selected for (peahens like a showoff with a big tail-fan as a sign of fitness), it's advantageous for reproduction.

[–] anolemmi@lemmi.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not an expert here, but I think you’re looking at this particular example backwards. Evolution isn’t a “smart” process that picks and chooses favorable traits, it’s more simply “this animal with these traits was able to survive and mate, so these traits get passed on”

So start with what was before the dinosaurs, to my recollection that would be some kind of amphibian, living in both water and land. Probably has four equal-length limbs and walks on all fours.

Whatever exactly happened between A and B idk, but eventually you get to the dinosaurs that walked on two legs. And that there is the answer. They used their legs more, their arms became less important to their survival techniques, and so over time they shrunk.

Survival for those guys was “run fast + big jaws and sharp teeth”. Long tails for balance while running, not much use for the arms. They didn’t shrink because it was an evolutionary advantage, they shrunk because they weren’t doing the heavy lifting. Terrible pun intended.

[–] bdesk@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Evolution is the process of turning things into crabs. The little T-rex arms were just part of this process.

[–] antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Which dinosaurs? Predators usually had relatively large heads because big head > big jaw > kill better and bite off more meat. But herbivores usually did not, as they could just focus on plants (instead they could develop longer necks to reach them in various places); some species such as Stegosaurus had rather famously tiny heads.

Tiny arms are associated with Tyrannosaurus and similar large theropods, but lots of other dinosaurs had relatively large arms, such as Dromaeosauridae ("raptors"). Their arm size probably reflected how much they were used during hunting - raptors' much more so than T-rex's, the latter probably relied on its jaws primarily. Of course discussing "arms" of various gigantic four-legged sauropods is pointless...

Basically there's too much variety among dinosaurs to answer your question directly.

[–] Norgur@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Can we acknowledge the super polite way the second linked article calls something bullshit?

Gregory S. Paul, in his 1988 book Predatory Dinosaurs of the World, also considered Deinonychus antirrhopus a species of Velociraptor, and so rechristened the species Velociraptor antirrhopus.[34] This taxonomic opinion has not been widely followed

[–] unnecessarygoat@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

i think its quite obvious they're talking about large theropods like Tyrannosaurus

[–] shortypig@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

Start with long arms and walk on all fours. Evolve to walk bipedal and have shorter arms. The dinosaurs you're thinking of are just in the process of evolving and might have eventually evolved to have no arms unless those little shorties are advantage somehow. (Holding on during mating, evolving towards wing development) Some modern snakes still have little nubbins where their legs used to be.

[–] tallwookie@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

arms were evolving to become vestigial

[–] match@pawb.social 1 points 1 year ago

Arms cost calories. If you don't need it, better to have less investment in it