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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
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They’re spot on. I had this thought last week while trying to find an ISO. It’s like it’s a state secret or something. 😆
Fedora, OpenSuse, Arch, Gentoo, Kali, and Armbian all make it easy to find an ISO or image to get started. The free RHEL downloads are the only thing more hidden then Debian downloads.
There's a big fat "download" button right in the front page of debian.org that takes you right to the network install ISO. That's all you need.
And a working network connection. That’s not crap.
That’s ALL you need. 😆
You gotta download it either way, netinstall or not. At least that way you can pick and choose what you actually need. Are you trying to set up a computer in the woods?
Sometimes, yeah. There are a lot shit networks out there.
With the full, I can at least get a functioning base system without needing a network connection. With the net, network no worky, no Debian.
Yeah, but there is a point. I'm not a Linux newbie, but sometimes you can get lost looking for the iso file that includes firmware, or non-free, or certain desktop. On most distro's pages, the big fat button leads to a direct link to the iso file and another to a torrent at most.
While I do agree that the website is bad, nowadays the main iso includes non-free firmware, and it's the same installer for all DEs.
Well that's nice, I think last Debian I downloaded what buster or something so I might have been talking about old experiences. They're still making the user navigate through an FTP-like file structure to find the current amd64 iso?
As an experiment you could go to debian.org and see if you find the download link.
I gave it another shot having not attempted for a few years, I was looking for the most complete, stable, non-free, offline, x64 image for a USB flash drive. I failed very quickly because I didn't know whether I needed a CD or DVD image. A few minutes of clicking through random and irrelevant "FAQs" and I finally found an answer I understood but only through experience, CD images are smaller than 700mb and my flash drive is large, so I wanted a DVD image. Back to the top, and I found the image I needed.
So it took a few minutes, and I've done this several times before. A new user would have absolutely no clue.
You're describing that you want something that isn't the standard installer, with the ability to do offline installs. A new user with no clue about anything would probably just use the top link and run the graphic installer, ending up with the same system as if he/she had downloaded the dvd version. Is your criticism that internet is a requirement for the standard installer?
Yeah, I mean the website design sucks for sure, but it's literally right there. I'm not sure what else people need.
Apparently by "people" you are referring to experienced technical users like yourself. Everyone else will need to learn what an ISO is, which one is needed, and how exactly to transform that file into a bootable USB stick. This means intense hand-holding from beginning to end. Which is possible, because other distros manage it. Debian does not.
If a user is that far down the technical literacy ladder, they do not need Debian, they need Ubuntu or Mint or one of a dozen other distros that prioritize UX over production.
Then the website should redirect them there instead of using poor UX as an excuse
I always thought it was the way it is so that you can still browse it through a text-based browser. If that's true, is there still room for improving it's ease of use?
His arguments are mostly about links to the ISO you are most likely going to want being buried down the page, or after attention drawing elements on the page or through multiple clicks through pages that suffer from these two problems. None of his criticisms are about it being mostly text based or the styling at all. So non of the improvements he suggest will affect text based browsers. So yeah, looks like there is a lot of room for improvement even if text based browsers are the primary focus.
It's mostly the layout that's annoying, not the web 1.0 look. (That's actually a breath of fresh air.)
Didn't watch, but did try to install Debian fairly recently. And everything in the TLDW is true. The Debian funnel is verbose, confusing, dated-looking, jumping straight into tech babble like "burning ISO" and vague mentions of 3rd-party tools, as if everyone understood what all this means or how to do it. Let's be serious, this is just not going to work for non-techie normies, and the maintainers must be deluded if they think otherwise. There needs to be a 1-2-3 walk-thru with big friendly buttons and all the software included to get a working bootable USB stick. Last I checked, even shady Fedora ticked these boxes. Debian is supposedly the flagship FOSS distro. It is behind the times and needs to catch up.
I agree that the website needs some work but I highly disagree that it should be simplified and dummed down for beginners, there are enough great Distros for beginners and Debian isn't really one of them so why should they brand their website like it?
There are plenty of friendlier distors out there that have novice users in mind and help them learn the basics. Debian is the distro you choose because you have a specific goal in mind, could be a server, a dev machine, or to build your own distro, but not as 'my-first-install.'
Debian is Debian. Debian doesn't need to be more anything. That's especially true when there's plenty of distros that are geared towards newer users that are at their core, Debian. Also, some of us don't like having everything simple but are still too lazy for Gentoo or even Arch, and if the iso, the website, old information, or whatever is a problem then probably Debian is a pain in the ass for that user as well.
Typical clickbaity thumbnail.
Yes. I agree.
It would have been less effort to submit patches to clean up the website than it took to make a video whining about it
Maybe, but someone complaining about something doesn't mean the person can fix it
The webaite could be nicer, but I wouldn't call that a big problem. Plain debian is mostly used for webservers or by users with at least some linux experience. These won't struggle that much with clicking the right link on the website.
I prefer the Debian website over most other distro's modern look. It's simple, like Debian.
I wouldnt call it simple and I definitely see issues with the UX from a actual usability standpoint but I don't think it has to be modernized or should be simplified for beginners, that's not the goal of Debian!
As someone who recently created pivoted to Debian (for 12.0) from Windows , the website is quite the headache. I consider myself tech-literate, and have been around the internet long enough where RTFM was a rite of passage, but they really are asking a lot given how many different directions the manual went. I put about 20 minutes into it along with 10-15 minutes reading up on things that were not well explained and then just YOLO'd it.
Also if 98% of people are installing via a flash drive and 2% are doing CD Rom installs, then cater towards the 98% in your instructions. Not only is the CD ROM examples more prominent, but they also end up leading to downloading the same .iso IIRC. Not saying to do away w/ the catering to obsolete technology, but maybe shift the conversation towards terminology and wording that end users can instantly identify with.
It really is an example of someone updating an existing process repeatedly instead of taking a step back and seeing how things have changed over time. I suppose that's the active theme for the entire website. The website is frustrating in that aspect. Speaking from experience, I'd venture that the majority of the traffic that is received from newbies following a YT tutorial where someone spells out where to go and what to click. Looking at the referenced video, it appears that have started to slowly make changes but there's still work to be done.
Reading this thread though, I can see how the web dev team came to their conclusion. A solid portion of this thread are people lauding a crap website like alumni who are extolling the virtues of hazing... "it was hard for me, it should be hard for everyone" or "There should be a bit of effort required to keep out the riff raff" etc.
I'm annoyed when there are many differents isos.
If you can't figure out something as simple as how to navigate their website, you probably shouldn't be using Debian as a distro anyway.
If you can't figure out something as simple as intuitive download links, you probably shouldn't be in charge of a massive distro's website.
Or maybe if we can't even design a website with a simple download page we can't be surprised if people don't use linux