this post was submitted on 19 Feb 2023
8 points (64.3% liked)
Memes
45660 readers
1694 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
@yogthos
its own puppet government of Russia, also some little green men that were also attacked by Ukraine decided to create a referendum at gunpoint with the only 2 questions of "will you join Russia?" or "will you be independent" (w/o the ability to choose to stay in Ukraine). Which frankly passed with the soviet score of 96.77%, who would've guessed.
Sure, if it's for democracy, it's a coup
Where Russia really stuck itself in like a fly on a paper
while keeping shooting at it, because that's what treaties should allow us to do, besides allowing annexation of countries Belarus-style, which they hoped for.
Gee, I wonder why
That's a really convenient narrative based on the fallacy of homogenizing Ukraine. Let's take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here's the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here's how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
Ukraine is clearly not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations.
And let's just look at a few facts about Crimea from a US government study. First thing to note is that it was never part of Ukraine proper. US government referred to it as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Second thing to note is that majority of the people in Crimea do not consider themselves Ukrainian, and the biggest demographic considers themselves Russian:
It was literally a coup, and this is well documented in western media. One has to be utterly intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Who do you think lives in Donbas genius?
It was literally Ukraine that kept shelling people in Donbas, but keep trying to pretend that black and white here.
You wouldn't if you weren't an ignoramus.
Here's a link to the 2019 presidential election if you're interested. Zelensky is in green.
This is the result for the Servant of the People (Zelenskys party, which is pro EU and pro Nato)
Hey, quick question there, what was the platform they ran on again?
No idea, I'm not ukranian! You'll have to search for that yourself.
I already know the answer. The platform they won on was to normalize relations with Russia and implement Minsk agreements. Then when they got in power they did the opposite. You should educate yourself on the subject so you don't make a clown of yourself in the future.
Why did you ask if you already knew?
There were posted images of old elections, giving the impression of a country divided by pro-europe or pro-russia when in 2019 there was a big support for the pro-EU and pro-NATO party all over the country. Just wanted to provide some context there.
I asked because I wanted to know whether you know. The context for what platform Zelensky got elected on is pretty important here. What you've provided is misinformation, go read up on the subject to educate yourself on it.
So I looked up their party platform of 2019, and it said that their goal was to restore the territorial integrity and state sovereignty of Ukraine. That might include the Minsk agreements, since I remember Zelensky talking about having free and fair referendrums in Donbass and Luhansk regarding autonomy.
However, nothing about relations with Russia, only stuff about implementing the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement and expand cooperation with the EU and NATO. Also something about relaunching their relations with their western neighbours?
Russia was never against Ukraine having relations with the west, not sure why you think that was relevant. Implementation of Minsk agreements was the core part of the platform because autonomy of Donbas was what the civil war since 2014 was all about.
Where did I state that Russia had something against Ukraines relations with the west?
Perhaps you should elaborate on why you thought relaunching relations with their western neighbours was relevant here.
Well you said their party platform was about normalizing relations with Russia and implementing the Minsk agreements and I couldn't find anything about that other than maybe restoring the territorial integrity and state sovereignty of Ukraine might include that since Zelensky talked about holding fair and free elections there.
The pictures posted before my replied gave the impression that you had two sides with one wanting to close ties with the EU and one with Russia. Since they were old elections from 2004 and 2010 the one from 2019 gives a much more different picture, telling us that the party with a platform of relaunching their relations with their western neighbours and implementing the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement and expand cooperation with the EU and NATO had a broad support over the country, not dividing it in two halves. So that's why I included that if that's what you mean. Otherwise I don't quite follow what you're asking.
What you keep admitting here is that you have absolutely no idea regarding the subject you're attempting to debate. Not sure why you felt the need to provide opinions on a topic you're utterly ignorant of.
Sorry, what?
I think I made a pretty good point? There's pictures of old elections showing a divided Ukraine chosing between Russia and Europe. I provided pictures of a more recent election showing a broad support, bridging that divide, for a pro-EU party with a presidential election with the same result.
What did I get wrong?
This all has been explained to you repeatedly in this very thread.
Well I reread the thread and no, it's unclear. Could you please specify?
I don't see any point since it's obvious this isn't a constructive discussion. If you're genuinely interested then go read up on the history of Ukrainian politics since the Maidan coup and why Zelensky was elected. This information is publicly available.
Oh I have a pretty okay understanding about Ukranian politics since Euromaidan and the start of the war. I also think that I have a good grasp on why Zelensky was so popular. I suppose you believe yourself to have an equivalent grasp of it?
Since you won't point out any faults in my comments, I'll take it as there are none?
Literally admitted earlier that you did not know what platform Zelensky ran on. I have repeatedly pointed out the problems with your comments. Feel free to go read them until you comprehend them. Since you evidently have the need to have the last word, I'm going to stop here.
You don't have to know every partys platform to have a grasp about the politics lol. No, you made statements which I adequately replied to.
Well, thanks for the last word then I suppose.
@yogthos @Flavourful Guys; we are here for the memes not political debate.
@yogthos
Sure, I was pointing out the fact that the referendum was held at gunpoint with actual Russian soldiers and the fact that there was no question on remaining inside Ukraine (you just seem to pile up links supporting your totally different, unrelated arguments while calling me an ignoramus because I do not take them into account)
Well documented with Kremlin propaganda and utter bullcr*p. We do know how trolls and Kremlin puppets deal with such things.
I didn't quite get the question, but if you were asking about "who" then it depends on who you ask, am I right? /s
Crimea is populated by Russians and has been part of Russia until Khrushchev gifted it to Ukraine which was entirely symbolic given that nobody thought USSR would fall apart back then. Claiming that people in Crimea were forced at gunpoint to be repatriated is the height of idiocy. Especially given that the US study I linked for you earlier clearly shows that most people felt that way even before 2014.
The links I provide are directly related to the discussion and provide important context. The fact that you claim they're unrelated further highlights that you're not arguing in good faith.
Kremlin propaganda from western sources, we've got a real galaxy brain here.
Work on your reading comprehension then you won't sound like such a 🤡.
@yogthos your logic falters along with your intelligence. There's no point in further discussing elementary stuff like this with you, especially when you call people clowns and idiots. Bye, troll!
This is really funny, because you actually think you're winning the argument, but to everyone with more then 3 brain cells you just got utterly destroyed :D
@DerPapa69 Nah, I'm not here for a dick measuring contest, I'm here just for fun lol
Edit: don't even know if there were 3 neurons synapsed under the same skull that I was speaking to, but I digress
Your comments are nothing but an attempt at a burn with no real reply.
#bebest