this post was submitted on 12 Jul 2023
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That's an incredibly pessimistic way to view the world... I think it's more accurate to say that people have the capacity for both good and evil. I'm not sure that you can say that "most everyone you know" are immoral or evil. That's quite the claim.
Though we would also have to explore what "immoral," and "evil" actually mean. Am I immoral for purchasing and using a cell phone made with materials that were obtained through means that destroy lives and damage ecosystems?
The modern world is far too complex and interconnected for people to avoid doing things that could be considered immoral or unethical.
Yes, it is, and as explained in the video the original author (and also the person explaining it) admit it is quite a claim, then proceed to demonstrate the veracity of the claim. I suggest you grab a cup of jo, settle in, and watch it. It addresses the points you bring up directly.
[EDIT: Re: Quite a Claim: Yes, and thus fitting the OP's "mind-blowing" criteria for the thread :-)]
The very short answer to "are you immoral for purchasing a cell phone" is "probably yes".
The proposition is not an easy one (it accepts it is extreme), but it is hard to deny when you march down the logic.
Right. And it necessarily follows from that that all humans are therefore immoral. And if that's the case, there is no longer any utility to the term "immoral." It becomes a pointless exercise.
You've committed reductio ad absurdum.
Yes, most people are probably acting immorally and they are not even aware of it.
That doesn't mean it is a pointless exercise to identify the immoral behavior and strive to reduce or eliminate it, even if it is impossible to completely do so.
Not most people. Literally every person. Or maybe you could give me an example of a person that wouldn't be considered immoral by your metric?
You are (deliberately?) skipping over the part of awareness.
Take for example a person who is aware that they cannot act morally when making seemingly normal, banal decisions. For example, they may be aware that when they choose to buy a shiny new cell phone when they have an older-but-still-perfectly-working model, they very likely doing something immoral. Because they are aware of the moral implications of their choice, they can choose hold-off buying a new phone for as long as possible (a morally-positive choice) and perhaps - going a step further - even using that money they would have spent on a new phone to help another person in need directly.
Most people probably don't contemplate the moral implications of the purchase of a new phone, this is true and I accept your position this. But it is clearly not "literally every person" as you have said, since it only takes a single person with awareness to disprove your statement. I am certain at least one such person exists (even if anecdotally), so I rely on the word "most" rather than "literally every".
Ok, but buying a cell phone isn't the only potentially immoral choice made by people regularly, it's just one example. Modern life is a minefield with this stuff, and I'm incapable of imagining a person in modern society who is capable of avoiding every single one of these pitfalls. Hell, it could probably be argued that even existing on this dying planet could be considered immoral or unethical. Again, maybe I'm wrong and you could think of one. Maybe some ascetic living on the street in India?
Also, I don't really agree that awareness is even relevant. You can do immoral things without being aware that the thing you're doing could be considered immoral. The thing itself is still immoral.
Which was kind of my point; that it's impossible to avoid in a modern, interconnected world. I probably did a dozen immoral things before breakfast this morning.
Did you watch the video? You are both making the same point.
I haven't. I'm currently at work and can't watch. I was mostly pointing out that it becomes a pointless exercise when you realize that every human on the planet is considered immoral
Pointless might be a bit of a stretch. Change begins with recognition - perhaps some of the grand constants must be mutable in order for progress to be made.
Sure, certainly, yes, I'll accept your admission at face value, but could you have done fewer?
I guess we can agree on the assumption that everybody is fundamentally egoistic and focused on their personal needs, which is necessary for the survival of the species. The fact that many many people chose to take care of total strangers every day shoes there's more to us than basic needs satisfaction. We need each other and we need to feel appreciated, which makes us gentle, generous, and caring. "Evil" is a scarecrow for children, "immoral" a tool invented by the bourgeoisie to oppress those that scare them