Yes, you need to abandon both and elect a new party of overthrow the state. That's been the solution for the last 30 years, but y'all aren't going to do that, so forgive me for discussing actual plausible scenarios.

[–] Badabinski@kbin.earth 1 points 1 month ago (2 children)

So I'm going to preface this by saying how I feel about the situation. I'm furious that Biden and the Democrats aren't just... y'know, fucking stopping this shit. I'm furious that the administration isn't doing more to end the goddamned genocide. It makes me feel sick to think that the executive branch of my country isn't denouncing what's happening. The Democrats are supposed to be the party for compassionate people. I consider myself to be a compassionate person, and the Democrats are absolutely failing to represent me.

I'm sure there's some realpolitik going on there, but like, realpolitik can suck my asshole when my taxes are paying for bombs and missiles that are being used by a different country in an unjust war to kill innocent people in a genocide.

Make no mistake, I want this shit to end right the fuck now. I want Israel to fuck off back to their borders. I want the hostages to be traded, I want Palestine to be a full state in the UN with defensive treaties. I want Bibi and the people who enabled him to be tried for crimes against humanity. I want Israel and the United States to pay reparations and to foot the bill for the rebuilding of Palestinian infrastructure.

I want change. I am tired of the Democrats. Shit, I think there are a lot of people tired of the Republicans. Nobody is happy with the way out system works. I look at other countries with coalition governments and a large number of specific parties and I wish that I could have that. I would absolute love to have a party that represents my values and desires.

With all that said, I just don't think that we will be able to enact meaningful change in 30ish days. To enact change within the confines our current system, we would need to convince tens of millions of people to vote for a candidate that truly represents them in that timeframe. Given the constricting nature of our two-party system, I think many people wouldn't know who that is. I certainly don't know who would represent me. It certainly wouldn't be Jill Stein, to provide an example of a third party candidate. I'd vote for Bernie Sanders, but he's not running for president. His election would require tens of millions to write his name on their ballots.

Many of the people who don't feel represented by our government with regards to Palestine currently vote for the Democrats. If we were to all switch in unison and vote for someone who would truly stop this shit, then we could enact our change. I believe that there's just no way to do that in a month.

If we try to enact change right now and fail, then we will likely end up with a violent, narcissistic rapist as the head of our government who will continue to implement blatantly christo-fascist policies. Christo-fascists do not like people of the Islamic faith, and Donald Trump has promised to wipe out Palestine if he is elected. He cannot be trusted to act according to what he has previously said (which, speaking from experience, is the fashion of all malignant narcissists who are not being treated for their PD), but there is a chance that he will follow through on his word and will speed up the genocide of the people of Palestine.

There are two primary candidates. One candidate will likely maintain the monstrous, awful, status quo. The other candidate may or may not direct the most powerful military force in the world to level Palestine and order the destruction of every man, woman, and child within its borders. The former gives the people of Palestine more time while to survive while we try to unfuck our system. It's not a guarantee, but it's a chance.

Earlier, I said that realpolitik can suck my asshole, and that's what this feels like. It's shit and I hate it and it makes me feel gross. None of this brings back the lives of those who have already died, and my choice probably wouldn't really be appreciated by a Palestinian who is trying to survive the bombs I'm paying for. I won't shame anyone who cannot live with themselves if they vote for Kamala Harris. People are entitled to their beliefs, and living out of compliance with them can be very harmful. However, I feel compelled to at least present an emotional argument against a vote for a 3rd party candidate (or no vote at all) in this specific situation.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'm furious that the administration isn't doing more to end the goddamned genocide

Biden approved the invasion of Lebanon and is sending in US troops and air support. They want this.

I'm sure there's some realpolitik going on there, but like, realpolitik can suck my asshole when my taxes are paying for bombs and missiles that are being used by a different country in an unjust war to kill innocent people in a genocide.

Israel helps terrorize enemies of the US empire and secures the Petro-dollar.

With all that said, I just don't think that we will be able to enact meaningful change in 30ish days. To enact change within the confines our current system, we would need to convince hundreds of millions of people to vote for a candidate that truly represents them in that timeframe. Given the constricting nature of our two-party system, I think many people wouldn't know who that is. I certainly don't know who would represent me. It certainly wouldn't be Jill Stein, to provide an example of a third party candidate.

So hopes and prayers while you vote for continued genocide, got it. Your feelings don't make the bombs lighter.

There are two primary candidates. One candidate will likely maintain the monstrous, awful, status quo. The other candidate may or may not direct the largest military force in the world to level Palestine and order the destruction of every man, woman, and child within its borders. The former gives the people of Palestine more time while to survive while we try to unfuck our system. It's not a guarantee, but it's a chance.

Biden has already ordered US air support and ground troops, the die is cast.

[–] Badabinski@kbin.earth 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I can't disagree with the facts presented about the positioning of US troops and the roles Israel and the US play on the geopolitical stage. This is a sick situation and my dread gets a bit deeper every day. I can't contest that my feelings won't do anything for the dead and the dying. I can't ask people to do things that are contrary to their beliefs, and it's clear that I do not have the capacity or the moral ground to affect the beliefs expressed in this thread.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Then I implore you to abandon the genocidal Biden regime. Side with humanity.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

To side with the even more genocidal Trump team? What kind of crazy is this? There isn't a third option. There's horrifically bad and there's even worse and you're siding with even worse. Come back to reality, Cowbee, it misses you.

The class is holding a vote on whether to put the "slap the ugly kid in the face" guy in charge or the "kick him in the nuts" guy in charge. You're right to say the kid should be left alone. You're right to say there should be a third option. You're right that there should be no slapping. You're right that the vote is offensive. But you can't stop the vote and you can't stop the violence. None of us can.

But fuck you if you can't bring yourself to say that the kid ought not to be kicked in the nuts and fuck you if you tell all the nice kids not to vote and fuck you if the kid gets kicked in the nuts because of your idiot intervention that only ever talks about the slappers and gives the kick-in-the-nuts crowd a free pass.

Not voting just lets the "kick him in the nuts" guy win every time, which is why the "slap him in the face" guy came up with the slapping policy in the first place.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

To side with the even more genocidal Trump team? What kind of crazy is this? There isn't a third option. There's horrifically bad and there's even worse and you're siding with even worse. Come back to reality, Cowbee, it misses you.

Of course not Trump, he's just as genocidal as Harris, Walz, and Biden. You're siding with genocide, that's unacceptable.

The class is holding a vote on whether to put the "slap the ugly kid in the face" guy in charge or the "kick him in the nuts" guy in charge. You're right to say the kid should be left alone. You're right to say there should be a third option. You're right that there should be no slapping. You're right that the vote is offensive. But you can't stop the vote and you can't stop the violence. None of us can.

Pure defeatism, if we have to torture this poor kid then it's best to tell the teacher to fuck off.

But fuck you if you can't bring yourself to say that the kid ought not to be kicked in the nuts and fuck you if you tell all the nice kids not to vote and fuck you if the kid gets kicked in the nuts because of your idiot intervention that only ever talks about the slappers and gives the kick-in-the-nuts crowd a free pass.

You are still under the grand delusion that the GOP is worse than the DNC on the issue of genocide. They aren't, this is a bipartisan effort. Biden has even sent in the troops and Walz said Israel needs to expand.

Not voting just lets the "kick him in the nuts" guy win every time, which is why the "slap him in the face" guy came up with the slapping policy in the first place.

No, this is so far removed from why America supports the genocidal settler-colonial entity. America supports Israel because Israel is a rabid dog on a leash that America uses to terrorize the Middle East and secure the Petro-Dollar, which it uses as the global standard to have a monopoly on Financial Capital, enslaving the Global South with predatory IMF loans.

Please, do some actual thinking.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You're kidding yourself. The Democrats absolutely have to move right when left wing people refuse to vote, otherwise they lose.

Withdrawing your vote is literally withdrawing left wing influence on politics and anything else is just a complicated lie.

Letting the republicans win is just encouraging the democrats to be more like the republicans.

If you convince everyone who cares about Gaza not to vote, then the parties absolutely cannot afford to have a pro Gaza stance, because it's electoral suicide - all the people who care about Gaza don't vote and will the people who just hate on Muslims so.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

You're kidding yourself. The Democrats absolutely have to move right when left wing people refuse to vote, otherwise they lose.

They can move left if they want left votes.

Withdrawing your vote is literally withdrawing left wing influence on politics and anything else is just a complicated lie.

Do you think the Dems analyze the percentage of votes based on the beliefs of their voters? What fantasy land do you live in? The Dems keep trucking along for their donors and appeal to areas they want votes in from the public. If Leftists always vote for dems as a fixed lever, then Dems will move right to satisfy their donors more because the leftists are spineless.

Letting the republicans win is just encouraging the democrats to be more like the republicans.

If the dems don't want leftist votes and move to the right, that's a problem with the dems, not leftists.

If you convince everyone who cares about Gaza not to vote, then the parties absolutely cannot afford to have a pro Gaza stance, because it's electoral suicide - all the people who care about Gaza don't vote and will the people who just hate on Muslims so.

I convince people to vote for anti-genocide parties like PSL and the Greens. Not supporting Palestine is electoral suicide.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Do you think the Dems analyze the percentage of votes based on the beliefs of their voters?

No, I think they see the republicans win with right wing policies, sigh and say "I guess we've gotta do some of that shit to get elected."

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Do you think the Dems try to serve their voters, or their donors?

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

They try to gain power, and they follow the votes that count towards the result. They ignore the votes that ignore the contest. You seem to think they pay attention to the non voters' views more than the voters views, which is irrational.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You keep pretending third party voters are non-voters, which is definitionally false.

The Dems follow the money, which comes from their donors. This drives policy.

For electoralism, they gesture to their voterbase, but this doesn't impact their real policy.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You keep pretending third party voters are non-voters, which is definitionally false.

You keep pretending that choosing to not affect the outcome affects the outcome.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It certainly affects the outcome, it signals support for ending genocide and delegitimizes the system.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

No, it makes no difference at all. Trump will win or Harris will win. If Trump wins, the democrats will move right to try to win again.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

And you'll keep goose stepping with them rather than hop off and join the Leftists in saving the world.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You're not saving anybody letting the fascists take over the government of the largest military.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

You're not saving anybody letting the fascists take over the government of the largest military.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If you convince everyone who cares about Gaza not to vote, then the parties absolutely cannot afford to have a pro Gaza stance, because it’s electoral suicide - all the people who care about Gaza don’t vote and will the people who just hate on Muslims so.

I convince people to vote for anti-genocide parties like PSL and the Greens.

Not voting, voting for Shill Stein, it's all gonna have the same effect - republicans winning and the democrats chasing the only votes on the table because the left folks abstain or effectively abstain.

Not supporting Palestine is electoral suicide.

Not voting is electoral death. Voting third party is electoral death. On which planet is the republicans winning going to make the democrats move away from rightwing policies? None of them!

If the dems don’t want leftist votes and move to the right,

They are going to move to the right if they lose. We have one of the most leftwing candidates the democrats have fielded in decades, and if she loses, the party bosses are going to say "see, it's senseless chasing leftwing votes, they're too pure to muddy their hands in actually effecting the outcome - we have to more to where people who actually vote are. The only way to win is to have policies that actual voters like, not your theoretical voters who won't compromise - you'll never get their vote. Come back to the centre!" And of course we both know what the centre means in America.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Not voting, voting for Shill Stein, it's all gonna have the same effect - republicans winning and the democrats chasing the only votes on the table because the left folks abstain or effectively abstain.

The dems can move left if they want leftist votes, and more people are moving to the left as Capitalism declines.

Not voting is electoral death. Voting third party is electoral death. On which planet is the republicans winning going to make the democrats move away from rightwing policies? None of them!

Electoralism is death.

They are going to move to the right if they lose. We have one of the most leftwing candidates the democrats have fielded in decades

Are you genuinely being serious, here? Do you know what Left-Wing means? LMAO

and if she loses, the party bosses are going to say "see, it's senseless chasing leftwing votes, they're too pure to muddy their hands in actually effecting the outcome - we have to more to where people who actually vote are. The only way to win is to have policies that actual voters like, not your theoretical voters who won't compromise - you'll never get their vote. Come back to the centre!" And of course we both know what the centre means in America.

Harris is campaigning to the RIGHT. She is moving RIGHT and losing voters over it.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Are you genuinely being serious, here? Do you know what Left-Wing means? LMAO

I didn't say she was left wing, I said she was the most left wing candidate the democrats have fielded in decades. If she loses, the democrats will give up on trying to move left even a tiny bit. If she wins, they can safely move further left. But every time they lose, they move right, to compromise wry the voters who actually vote.

You seem to be confusing Biden and Harris, which is understandable, but not particularly clear headed.

Electoralism is death.

Please stop pretending to care. You're an acceleratist pretending to want things to get better. You clearly want it to get worse and you come up with the most backwards-on logic to pretend it'll make things better.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I didn't say she was left wing, I said she was the most left wing candidate the democrats have fielded in decades

This is still meaningless.

If she loses, the democrats will give up on trying to move left even a tiny bit. If she wins, they can safely move further left. But every time they lose, they move right, to compromise wry the voters who actually vote.

They will not move left. If they win, they realize they can keep moving right. Dems want to move right to serve their donors.

You seem to be confusing Biden and Harris, which is understandable, but not particularly clear headed.

Not at all. Care to elaborate?

Please stop pretending to care. You're an acceleratist pretending to want things to get better. You clearly want it to get worse and you come up with the most backwards-on logic to pretend it'll make things better.

Please stop pretending to care. You're an accelerationist pretending to want things to get better. You clearly want it to get worse and you come up with the most backwards-on logic to pretend it'll make things better.

Read theory. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Read theory. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.

Because Harris listens to what they say?! Your theories seem to result in you checking out of having any effect on the world. No thanks.

If your activism wasn't about to hand power to the literal fascists, it might have some appeal and I might think you were genuine or correct, but I can't tell the difference between republican trolls and tankies because they give the exact same advice - if you care, make sure you don't affect the outcome. What kind of shit advice is that?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Because Harris listens to what they say?! Your theories seem to result in you checking out of having any effect on the world. No thanks.

No, because those are revolutionary orgs. Your lack of theory has you firmly advocating for dead ends.

If your activism wasn't about to hand power to the literal fascists, it might have some appeal and I might think you were genuine or correct, but I can't tell the difference between republican trolls and tankies because they give the exact same advice - if you care, make sure you don't affect the outcome. What kind of shit advice is that?

The Dems are handing power to the fascists. They are committing genocide, Imperialism, failing to address the climate, refusing to help women, trans people, minority populations, and are accelerating towards World War 3.

Fascism will not be beaten by a Dem victory, it will still come. Fascism is Capitalism in decay, as long as Capitalism continues to decay fascism continues to rise. You are working towards fascism. Right-wingers like you would rather genocide continue than lift a finger to help Muslims.

Read theory and join an org.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Fake leftwingers like you would rather the actual fascists took over America.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The Dems are doing that themselves, just because you're a right-winger aiding fascism doesn't mean I'm a "fake leftwinger."

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You're a fake left winger because you spend so much time and effort supporting the fascists to win control over America.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

You're a fake left winger because you spend so much time and effort supporting the fascists to win control over America.

[–] regul@lemm.ee 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Dawg they're wiping out Palestine now, under a Democrat. Acting like there's any daylight between Trump and Kamala in terms of what they actually do is just liberal cope.

Painting a rainbow on the side of the bomb doesn't make it any less of a bomb.

[–] Badabinski@kbin.earth 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I apologize, I was rushed and didn't adequately explain myself. I want to restate the premise on which I made my comment. Israel has a large military and is using it to kill Palestinians right now. I absolutely agree with that. Israel is using weapons provided by the United States, and the transfer of those weapons was authorized by the current Democratic administration. No disagreements there.

My fear is that the military of the United States will become directly involved in the Palestinian genocide. I am afraid of the much larger and better armed US military actively leveling grid squares filled with Palestinian civilians with missiles. What is happening right now is already monstrous. I want the United States to divest and cease its involvement in this genocide at the bare minimum. I want the United States to directly oppose Israel and stop the genocide, using force if necessary. I very much do not want the United States' involvement to increase. If Donald Trump is elected, an increase in the use of force against Palestine may happen. That is my argument. I absolutely do not believe that the current administration is doing the right thing here. I hate it, and I want it to stop. I just also don't want it to get worse.

[–] regul@lemm.ee 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

an increase in the use of force against Palestine may happen

It may also happen under Kamala.

All of this "Kamala might be better than Biden or Trump on genocide" is purely based on vibes and not based on anything she's ever done or said.

[–] RedditWanderer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Trump has openly said he would end the war in Ukraine swiftly by giving Ukraine to Putin, his good friend. Ignorance is bliss i guess, at least Kamala isn't spewing Russian propaganda

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago

It's based on things the republicans have done and said.

[–] RedditWanderer@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

And they would be wiping palestine AND ukraine under a Republican, whats your point. It's shitty to have to pick a lesser evil and americans should protest having to do that,, but let's not pretend they are the same evil.

Trump openly admits he would be doing far far worse

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago

Downvoted for obvious truths. Must be a tankie instance.