this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2022
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Russia = untrustworthy, we all know that. /s
Seriously tho, what motivation would Russia have to bomb something that brings them profit? It makes as much sense as the US bombing its own gas pipelines.
What profit motive would Russia have to invade Ukraine, knowing there would be massive economic backlash? They're not motivated by simple profit calculations at the moment. And it's not like that pipeline is bringing them profit now. For that matter, it may never bring them profit again with a Europe that will be reluctant to return to relying on an unreliable source of energy.
Ukraine has been invading and bombing the donbass with impunity since 2014, over 8k civilians killed in that time. Defending their border areas, and the lives of russian-speaking peoples, is a core strategic interest. Keeping those areas stable does help their profit in the long term. Why was Ukraine attacking the donbass, if that's wrecking their country now?
That's the US's goal, not Russia's! Russia very much wants to continue selling gas via the pipelines.
When the US sabotages infrastructure projects, they're "unreliable". This is like saying I burned down your farm, so you must have no interest in keeping it since its unreliable.
Because there are separatists in the region who were obviously going to eventually "ask" to join Russia. Is Ukraine supposed to sit by idly while Russia takes more and more of its territory under the pretense of protecting Russian speakers? Are you aware of Hitler's similar moves during WW2? This isn't about economics, it's about a country's sovereignty.
That's not what I mean when I say unreliable. I mean a source that becomes a security threat. It's become clear that the Cold War and Russian imperialism never were truly over for some Russians, especially at the top.
You mean genociding russian-speaking ppls in eastern europe, exactly like what ukraine is doing? BTW the current Ukrainian government is erecting monuments to their nazi collaborators as fast as they can.
According to who, Russia? Putin? The man lies as easily as he breathes.
Let's just see what HRW, a famous Putin puppet, has to say https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/07/21/you-dont-exist/arbitrary-detentions-enforced-disappearances-and-torture-eastern
Well good thing you're here to defend the Nazis.
LMAO
The only funny part is you continuing trying to pretend that Ukraine isn't run by literal fascists. Sad.
Democracy is when you ban 11 left-wing parties including your largest opposition party right?
Yes, it is logical. When you want to assert authority and remain in power, it is, in fact, logical to ban your opposition. But it is not democratic. It's fascist.
I didn't say anything about Russia. I just replied to your assertion that Ukraine is trying to be democratic. It isn't.
But how are they "trying" to be. What effort was made to be democratic? Was it when America organized a coup of the popularly elected government in 2014? Was it when they integrated ethnic cleansing Nazis into the government? Was it when they banned their opposition? Was it when they closed their borders to all men eligible to the draft? Was it when they promised to sell off national assets to western corporations on the stock market? Was it when they declared their desire to be a second Israel (a literal genocidal apartheid state)?
What part of this is an "attempt" at democracy??
I still never said a fucking thing about Russia.
No, I'm actually bringing up very specific incidents that occurred in Ukraine, that can be confirmed by Ukraine governmental sources, and that were widely reported by Western media outlets.
What you are doing, however, is trying to paint any criticism of Ukraine as pro-Russian propaganda, and then cutting off conversation when you run out of canned talking points.
I still really absolutely never said a fucking thing about Russia. This is deflection mate. Pure and simple. All I did was refute your claim that Ukraine is democratic. By bringing up the very publicly available information that Ukraine itself provided regarding their non-democratic practices.
You don't "try" to be democratic. Either your people get a voice or they don't. And when you ban your largest opposition party your people don't get a voice. Simple as.
And you accuse me of "cherry-picking" and using a "propaganda handbook" but wait'll you read how fucking often the West has backed fascist and far-right governments under the guise of gaining "more democratic status" as you put it. That is the epitome of the propaganda handbook.
Take a fucking look at literally ever nation post US-backed coups to see the exact same fucking lines, ending with the people suffering immensely in exchange for the military-industrial complex to ramp up sales, and for the resources of that nation to be ruthlessly exploited by wall street. A thing that is literally what is being promised for Ukraine.
Honest to god. Read a fucking book.
My take is that anyone who is on the same side as America in pretty much anything, while America is lapping up the blood like fucking water in the desert and slapping arms deals around left and right is a complete fucking muppet
Your obsession with getting me to try to say something in defense of Russia so you can confidently claim I'm a Russian troll or something is wild.
My entire conversation has been about Ukraine's status as a non-democratic, far-right government whose people are being ruthlessly exploited by American businesses and fed into the maws of war so that wall street can profit.
If you cared about the people of Ukraine (the fucking people not the fascist government and the corporations they are stooges for) you wouldn't spend your days online shilling US talking points designed to manufacture consent for continuing hostilities, while the threat of a looming winter energy crisis haunts Western Europe.
A looming energy crisis that would remind European citizens that this entirely manufactured war could be brought to an end through negotiations, something which would save lives in Russia, Ukraine, and Western Europe, but which would cost America money.
America hates to lose money however, and loves the business of war, so in order to make sure this conflict drags on as long as possible and as many people as possible die, they need to ensure that Western Europe doesn't cave to energy demands and negotiate a deal with Russia, bringing an end to the war and re-opening the flow of gas.
Which brings us to the start of this thread: America has the most to gain from this sabotage.
Fin
Ukraine bans communism and socialism. How can a country be democratic without democratic governance?