this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2022
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[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Interesting, but seeing as it's Russia making the claim it could well just be disinformation.

[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Russia = untrustworthy, we all know that. /s

Seriously tho, what motivation would Russia have to bomb something that brings them profit? It makes as much sense as the US bombing its own gas pipelines.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

What profit motive would Russia have to invade Ukraine, knowing there would be massive economic backlash? They're not motivated by simple profit calculations at the moment. And it's not like that pipeline is bringing them profit now. For that matter, it may never bring them profit again with a Europe that will be reluctant to return to relying on an unreliable source of energy.

[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Ukraine has been invading and bombing the donbass with impunity since 2014, over 8k civilians killed in that time. Defending their border areas, and the lives of russian-speaking peoples, is a core strategic interest. Keeping those areas stable does help their profit in the long term. Why was Ukraine attacking the donbass, if that's wrecking their country now?

And it's not like that pipeline is bringing them profit now.

That's the US's goal, not Russia's! Russia very much wants to continue selling gas via the pipelines.

on an unreliable source of energy.

When the US sabotages infrastructure projects, they're "unreliable". This is like saying I burned down your farm, so you must have no interest in keeping it since its unreliable.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Why was Ukraine attacking the donbass, if that’s wrecking their country now?

Because there are separatists in the region who were obviously going to eventually "ask" to join Russia. Is Ukraine supposed to sit by idly while Russia takes more and more of its territory under the pretense of protecting Russian speakers? Are you aware of Hitler's similar moves during WW2? This isn't about economics, it's about a country's sovereignty.

When the US sabotages infrastructure projects, they’re “unreliable”. This is like saying I burned down your farm, so you must have no interest in keeping it since its unreliable.

That's not what I mean when I say unreliable. I mean a source that becomes a security threat. It's become clear that the Cold War and Russian imperialism never were truly over for some Russians, especially at the top.

[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Are you aware of Hitler’s similar moves during WW2?

You mean genociding russian-speaking ppls in eastern europe, exactly like what ukraine is doing? BTW the current Ukrainian government is erecting monuments to their nazi collaborators as fast as they can.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You mean genociding russian-speaking ppls in eastern europe, exactly like what ukraine is doing?

According to who, Russia? Putin? The man lies as easily as he breathes.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

"Russia bad. America good. I'm a free thinker. You're a brainwashed tankie."

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I made no claims about America, but Russia is particularly bad when it comes to lies. Remember when all of this was starting and they were waving away a massive buildup of tanks as a training drill? Russia makes claims of genocide by Ukraine while denying well documented mass murder of Ukrainian civilians. It claims that US contractors are deploying chemical weapons in the Donbass region. Then there were the transparent lies around Flight MH17. The US lies from time to time, it is true. But Russia lies habitually in a firehose of misinformation to confuse between truth and fiction. It is like comparing Trump and his habitual lying with a more normal politicians occasional truth stretching. Not even the same league.

[–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

The US lies from time to time

If only I had your level of denial, then maybe I wouldn't be so miserable living in the West.

[–] giffybiss@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Honey. Is this the secret to all these eurolibs pretending that everything is fine?

[–] graphito@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You know what can definitely help you?

✨ Russian citizenship ✨

[–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

You think it's that easy to immigrate anywhere? Trust me, if I could leave, I would. I can't.

Also, loving your ability at nuance. Everyone who doesn't hate Russia or defends them in any way worships Russia and wants nothing but to live there and lick the ground Putin walked on.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If only you showed the same level of skepticism when it comes to western propaganda.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If only you showed the same level of skepticism when it comes to western propaganda.

If only you showed the same level of skepticism when it comes to Russian propaganda.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Oh I do, there is plenty of wild stuff coming out of Russia that's just as laughable as the stuff put out by the west.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Then maybe do me a solid and respond to some of the people here who are echoing Kremlin propaganda, eh?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Please be specific what it is you claim to be Kremlin propaganda in this thread and why.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Claims of genocide by the Ukrainian government. There have been no such efforts from the government. The worst I have seen in concrete terms is trying to force Russian speakers to use Ukrainian, and that had been limited. It's mostly just fear mongering.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Claims of genocide by the Ukrainian government

There have been, and they're well documented. I've linked western sources detailing such efforts in many threads now.

The worst I have seen in concrete terms is trying to force Russian speakers to use Ukrainian, and that had been limited. It’s mostly just fear mongering.

Then you clearly haven't bothered looking very hard, here are a few things you could start reading to educate yourself:

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I see sins aplenty, but no genocide.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Third link literally discusses ethnic cleansing, but ok...

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It literally says the opposite of that on page 12.

This analysis and common political science definitions show that genocide, fascist, junta, and terrorism are not appropriate terms to define the conflict in Donbas.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

The study chooses to avoid using the term genocide, but if you actually read it you will see that it clearly states that the conflict is based around national identity and ethnicity. It also documents lots of crimes committed by the Maidan regime, and genuine desire from the people of Donbas and Crimea to separate from Ukraine. If you bother reading other sources I've provided above then I don't know how you can claim that the regime is not involved in ethnic cleansing.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The paper doesn't avoid the topic of genocide. It categorically and explicitly rules out genocide by name. And just because a conflict is based around national identity and ethnicity does not automatically make it a genocide. Nor do acts of violence. This is war.