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this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2024
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Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.
It's the sort of thing they probably do in places like NK, or the Third Reich, you don't expect it to come from a supposedly modern, non imperialist nationalistic nation, ya know? :-(
I'm from the UK, my wife is from Singapore, and our son was born in the US. I really don't think it's appropriate to force him to pledge allegiance to the US, because he has strong ties to other countries. It feels like brainwashing.
It is brain washing.
Where I'm from children sing the national anthem once a week at the school assembly and usually a few other songs too.
There are typically no flags.
Germany: we sang the anthem about once a year if even.
But that wasn’t always the case, now was it
That's the reason we stopped doing that
Well we defeated that ideology! And then wrapped it in red white and blue and made it our own! so take that!
^please^ ^help^ ^us^
^maybe^ ^you^ ^guys^ ^can^ ^invade^ ^us^ ^this^ ^time?^
^also,^ ^it^ ^was^ ^kinda^ ^the^ ^russians^ ^more^ ^than^ ^us…^
Not russians, soviet people. Well, russians too, but also ukrainians, belarusians/belorussians, armenians, georgians, long list of other nationalities that now their own states and even longer list of nationalities without one.
Singing once a week vs listening twice a year like in Russia. Please fix. Don't be worse than Russia.
It raises my heckles and annoys the shit out of me. It's not the hill I'll die on though.
It's also a dreadful dirge, which in recent years has been "jazzed up" and now it is even more grating to he ears, as well as nationalist B/S.
It's also sung indigenous language version first then English which riles up the racists so it has it's upsides.
I don't think they can force you. There was even a legal case I think.
They can't force you, but teachers can decide that your behaviour in class is uncooperative and your answers are bad, so you should get bad grades. Teachers can decide that when you report you have been beaten up by the Nazi gang in school that you are probably making it up as you are always looking for attention and making yourself be special.
I'm sure it will be over turned soon. Precident and clear readings of the US constitution don't matter much nowadays.
And we (the US) do it for soooo many public events for no reason! I was running in a marathon in Arkansas once where the host said that if anyone kneels during the anthem he will come and make them stand up. I just walked out after this and came back when the race started. There is only one reason: jingoism.
The irony is it was ruled based on freedom of religion, primarily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette
When I was in school the pledge was always preceded by the statement "we live in a nation of freedom, participation in the pledge of voluntary. Those who wish to participate please stand, other may remain seated and quiet"
I remember when it first dawned on me how creepy the pledge is I began to sit and one teacher was like "what are you doing? You have to stand up!" so I explained that it seems creepy, and quoted the statement they always precede the pledge by and the teacher replied "oh I never thought about that" and left me alone from then on on the subject
In French schools that kind of indoctrination would be immediately likened to the Nazi-empowered Vichy government in the 40s.
But you know, the grandchildren of those have brainwashed enough people that they're already seeing themselves in power right now, so maybe we'll get that again soon, and a lot worse?
French people, vote today. Please.
French people, please do your national sport: revolution.
We need a new constitution, badly. One that gives more power to the parliament, and less to the president. The current constitution is De Gaulle's creature, it was tailor made for him and simply doesn't represent people in today's political map.
The fact people don't feel their vote matters anymore is one of the main reasons far right is so strong right now. Macron has been elected with less than 28% of expressed votes on first turn of the election, yet he basically runs the place.
Changing constitution is actually in the left wing alliance's program. Except they want to do it democratically, by being elected into power, not through a revolution.
The world has changed. Even France doesn't want revolution.
I really hope you guys avoid the far right government that we keep hearing Marine Lepen is trying to install. The one upside I can see is that she will hopefully scare the shit out of some moderates in the US so we avoid Trump
Results are (mostly) in, far right is way too high but still third, behind the left and presidential alliances. Worrying for the future but it could have been worse.
Some of the far right candidates had already called for "not accepting the result of the election if they lose". I am sure you can draw some parallels...
Apparently, schools will have to display the ten commandments in classrooms, which means all the kiddies with functional brains get to wonder why chanting to a piece of colored fabric isn't considered worshipping a false idol.
Also, all the military recruiters will get to awkwardly explain the whole "thou shallt not kill" thing...
It is the job of the education system to root out these potential future threats to social order.
If you take a look at pre 1943 US, you might see some inspirations for Hitler there.
https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/09/11/160936717/politics-the-pledge-and-a-peculiar-history
The Bellamy Salute was pretty much the same. The Pledge of Allegiance was done with it. It was changed to the hand over heart style in 1942.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute
Good call there
I said it once, I say it again. Why the Flag? I don't get it. Why not the Constitution? The Flag changed so many Times in US history.
Is there an actual reason or just because the flag is a more visual Token for loyalty?
I think it's because the people who made the pledge were just trying to sell flags. "A flag in every classroom" or something to that effect. So, once again, the answer is capitalism.
The pledge was just made by flag companies to sell more flags guys
You dont think someone made money off of this?
Dunno for US, but in some monarchies, the flag was carried around by representatives who delivered the will of the king/queen/emperor/etc. So seeing the flag was the same as seeing the ruler in person. Symbolism I guess.
Could be 🤔
Maybe I'm gonna find out who started this and if he had any motive at all to pick the Flag 🤔
The visual qualities are exactly the point.
If you wave around the constitution, it's indistinguishable from some random bits of parchment. Most people can recognize their flag, even when it's flapping around and next to similar flags. Humans are just very visual creatures.
In either case, the pledge isn't actually to the object itself but to the country represented by that object.
The problem we have in the US is that Old Glory is commonly used to represent some particular group's vision of what the US should be rather than a symbol of the country as a whole. When that sort of change is broadly positive, such as when it started to become a symbol of American ingenuity in space, it's easy for everyone to rally behind. When it starts to symbolize a message like, "We should give the police unrestrained power." it becomes more divisive.
Bullshit, I instantly could picture the declaration of independence, it is not a crazy symbol to use as noone has 400 year old parchment lieing around anymore.
I think theres an argument over which would be a more appropriate symbol but personally I think the nationalism stuff to be silly when theres not much the US has done to be proud of.
I'm proud of our younger generations. Do they have a flag?
It fits the rhythm, the cadence better. Makes it easier to remember and recite.
What is strange to me is while you're made to repeat the pledge every day as a child in school, the practice is not carried into adult life at all. We hear the national anthem at every sporting event (not that I go to sporting events), but I can't think of a single time I was expected to pledge allegiance as an adult.
In post-communist eastern Europe it was common to reinforce the nationalistic sentiment in schools to try and erase the Soviet/Russian influence in case of a posible future separatist movement from within.
I live in Ireland, we had an American teacher visit our school for a year. She taught us the pledge, it stands out as one of the stranger memories of my childhood. That and her repeated “they didn’t want bush any more, they wanted Clinton”. Which should give you some sort of hint of how long ago this was.
She taught you guys the pledge to the US flag or at least made it about the flag of Ireland?
Taught us the US pledge. I don’t remember there actually being a flag in the room, but it was a good 30 years ago
Even in Russia kids don't chant in devotion to a state flag in schools. America, please fix your schools.
I know what you meant by “state flag” but I want to be cheeky, so here goes:
We didn’t pledge to a state flag but the federal flag. But the state of Maryland has a fabulous flag, and I’m still devoted to its design all these years later.
For whatever reason, in the 70s, in Maryland, I only recall pledging allegiance in the morning at the start of school during first grade. I don’t think we did it past second grade. In any case, I took the opportunity to insert curse words. I would say it like, “I pledge allegiance to the shit, and to the asshole for which it shits.” I didn’t lower my voice either. I just figured that I would never be noticed. Thinking back, I am surmising that my teacher must have noticed at least once but just ignored it.
You sound like a CGP Grey enthusiast https://m.youtube.com/@CGPGrey