this post was submitted on 16 Apr 2022
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I think each country has to decide for themselves what they're going to do about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Especially those countries who have been on the receiving end of US unilateralism as described in the article.
Despite all the past offenses of the US and the west, in this instance I think the west is acting as a force for good. Ukraine was invaded by Russia under false pretenses of "denazification" . The Ukrainians are asking for help to resist an invader. We should help them.
I'm no supporting the guys who spent 20 years on a murder spree in the Middle East. The West has a lot of blood on their hands, even more so than Russia.
Ok sure, you're not wrong. The west has a lot of blood on it's hands in regards to the Middle East and the whole world if you really want to take a tally. I mean the whole colonization of the Americas was genocide. The European empire building of the whole world was genocide on large scales.
You don't have to support the west to understand that an invasion of another sovereign country is wrong. It was wrong when the US invaded Iraq. It's wrong now when Russia invades Ukraine.
I support the west supporting Ukraine in this instance but I reserve the right to change my mind if conditions change or new information becomes available.
Ukraine and Russia didn't exist as countries until 30 years ago. Most people alive today were born when the two were the same country. This is not one soverign country invading another. This is continuation of unresolved issues from the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Ukraine is in fact a sovereign nation and has been, as you say for 30 years.
Most people living there were born to different borders.
There is no scenario here where Ukraine can win against Russia. All this conflict does is prolong the suffering of the people there. The only ethical thing to do is to help find a diplomatic solution and encourage negotiations. Unfortunately, western powers have been doing the opposite of that encouraging Ukraine to continue fighting and sending weapons. The reality is that the west doesn’t actually care about the people of Ukraine, and just wants to use them as pawns to drag Russia into a prolonged conflict there. It’s a ghoulish thing to do.
Interesting perspective. You say the help of the west is only prolonging the suffering of Ukraine.
However, now that Russia is retreating from the north of Ukraine, we are withnessin what they are doing to the resisting Ukrainian people (which did not receive any help from the west, as they have been under Russian control from the beginning).
So for me it is also clear that a lot of ukrainings will die/suffer if Russia conquered the whole of Ukraine.
So I guess the only chance of avoiding suffering is for Russia to stop fighting altogether and going back to Russia. How do you think this could be reached?
Russia isn't retreating from anywhere. They pinned a chunk of Ukrainian army around Kiev which allowed them to surround the main force in Donbas. Now that the main army is surrounded they no longer need to keep troops around Kiev, and so they're redeploying them to help the main force.
The whole notion that they were going to take Kiev is absurd when you look at the numbers of troops. It required around 40k troops to take Mariupol which is a tenth of the size of Kiev. It's pretty clear that 40k troops Russia deployed around Kiev were in no position to take the city.
It's also not at all clear who is responsible for the attacks on the civilians. For example, the fact that the attack in Kramatorsk was from a Tochka-U rocket that's used by Ukraine, but was decommissioned by Russia back in 2019, strongly suggests that the attack came from Ukrainian forces. There need to be independent investigations into these incidents, however UK weirdly blocked the UN meeting to run these investigations.
Russian demands have been clear from the start and haven't changed. The entire war could've been avoided if Ukraine formally agreed to remain neutral and to implement Minsk protocol which it signed.
One of Russia's main stated goals for the invasion were to demilitarize Ukraine. This is well under way with Ukrainian military production capacity having been destroyed. Without capacity to produce ammo and weapons or to repair current inventory, Ukrainian army is not going to be able to continue fighting much longer.
Once the army is defeated then Russia will be able to dictate its terms to Ukraine. These terms will continue to get worse as Ukraine's position continues to become ever more untenable. So, again, the longer this drags on the worse things will be for Ukraine. People of Ukraine gain absolutely nothing from this conflict.
Russia also claimed that Ukraine didn't sink the Moskva, yet they still pulled their ships away from the coastline.
At the beginning Russia claimed they were just holding exercises, now it's a "special military operation".
Russia claims it wasn't targeting civilians, but we have thousands of pictures and a couple intercepted phone calls that say otherwise.
The claim about Ukrainian military production capacity having been destroyed comes from Ukraine. And last I checked Russian ships haven't moved out of range of the neptune missiles that Ukraine supposedly used.
Also, imagine thinking that Russian military uses unencrypted phone calls to communicate. It's absolutely surreal that people don't realize there's a propaganda war going on along with an actual war and just uncritically swallow everything they see in the media. There have been lots of examples of Ukraine making things up, like claiming that the troops on the snake island were killed when they were captured, or claiming that Moskva's captain was killed when he miraculously appeared at the ceremony a few days later.
The reality is that Russia lies, Ukraine lies, the west lies. Everyone is doing propaganda right now.
Like this?
"But that's not proof!"
"Well that's just Ukrainians disgused as Russians"
"Those Russians are a rogue group, not the real Russian Army!"
Because Ukrainians haven't lied at all during the war. Snake island totally happened. Please send me a DM cause I have a bridge to sell you.
Yeah sure. The only ethical thing to do is to give Putin everything he wants so he doesn't kill more Ukrainians. Got it.
Please explain to me your galaxy brain logic of why killing more Ukrainians to achieve the same result is desirable. You're not personally affected by any of this, so it's easy for you to advocate ruining lives of countless other people to spite Putin.
If you feel so strongly about this then why don't you pick up a gun and go to Ukraine yourself, if you're not willing to do that then kindly shut the fuck up.
Well, it's pretty easy logic to follow, and if you were anything other than a partisan troll, arguing in bad faith, you could easily follow.
The Ukrainians are asking for help. We should help them. That it's. That's the logic.
I love how you just homogenized Ukrainians here. The Ukrainian regime that insists on continuing the fighting certainly does not represent the totality of people of Ukraine. It's a large country with diverse demographics and right wing extremists that the west backs do not speak for all of Ukraine. Either you're a troll or utterly ignorant on the subject you're bloviating on.
Haha way to toe the partisan line. Russia has to invade to fight the nazi fascists. Got it.
Nowhere did I justify Russia invading anything. Thanks for confirming you're a troll though given the nazi problem in Ukraine is a well documented fact.
Ahh yes, appeasement. Such a great plan. Next they invade Poland and you can just give them that as well to make sure that they don't suffer. We can just go through a list of countries and give them one a year, no suffering.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it
you used so many words to say you're an ignoramus