the system for who is required to participate has practically never been fair and equitable, jury duty is not comparable to military service, and forced labour is slavery

civil jury duty is a really weird example to use anyway, since civil jury trials are practically non existent outside the USA

[–] xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 10 months ago

I didn't say civil jury duty (I assume you mean for civil trials by that)

I said jury duty, which is a civil duty.

[–] xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

practically never

Soooo... sometimes.

Jury duty is also compulsory labour.

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

forced labour is slavery

[–] xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

So you're just doubling down on jury duty is slavery instead of considering a nuisance perspective?

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

im assuming you mean nuanced

me not agreeing with you doesnt mean i didnt consider your perspective, and saying 'well surely not all forced labour is slavery' isnt nuance

[–] xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The issue is you're confusing compulsory labour with forced labour.

If you don't do conscription or civil service work (the alternative option) the consequences are a fine, or jail. This is the same as eg refusing jury duty or not doing your taxes.

Having compulsory civil duties is not new, nor is it slavery. In countries at high risk of conflict (eg Taiwan), it's practically required for their continued short-term existence.

I'm not even pro-conscription (for my own nation at this time), but "conscription is slavery" is so reductive, and just stops people discussing the actual pros and cons of the practice.

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago

The issue is you’re confusing compulsory labour with forced labour.

seems like a you problem, what with you talking about compulsory labour while i explicitly said forced labour

If you don’t do conscription or civil service work (the alternative option) the consequences are a fine, or jail.

"youre not forced to do it, you just get tossed in jail if you dont do it"

In countries at high risk of conflict (eg Taiwan), it’s practically required for their continued short-term existence.

if a country can only motivate its people to actually protect said country by threatening them into doing so, it didnt actually deserve protection

and just stops people discussing the actual pros and cons of the practice.

good, i do not want people discussing the actual pros of slavery

[–] Lorindol@sopuli.xyz 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.

In my country when a man turns 18, he has to choose either military service (6 months for rank and file, 9 months for specialists or 12 months for specialist drivers and NCO and officer trainees) or civil service (13 months). Third and very seldomly used option is "total denial", which means you get to spend 6 months in an open jail.

I very reluctantly chose military service, hoping to get the shortest 6 month option. I ended up serving 12 months in the reserve officer training program, so I do have some experience on the matter.

The population of my country is so small that an army based on professional or voluntary troops is not a possibility. Conscription is the only viable choice.

The service was rarely fun, but it was very effective and extremely valuable. The personal growth I experienced during that year was immeasurable and one year of my life is a very small price to pay to this country that my grandparents' generation paid a very heavy toll to protect. A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.

If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you. I would gladly give my life to protect mine.

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.

performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced

A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.

i am so glad that you have all of that

If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you

i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated

I would gladly give my life to protect mine

and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so

[–] Lorindol@sopuli.xyz 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced

Forced labour is very different to military training, IMO. Your choices and freedom are restricted - that cannot be denied - but your days are filled with different training excersizes, not labour as I understand it. And I've had my fair share of that too, but by my own choice.

i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated

True. Your earlier statement was ambiguous concerning this. This is why I started the sentence with "if".

and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so

Also true. But if I had to defend my country, the most effective way to do it would be as a part of a trained and coordinated effort, not as some loner seeking a Hollywood - style "heroic sacrifice".