this post was submitted on 28 Dec 2023
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[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 156 points 11 months ago (4 children)

In case you're ever wondering, this is an example of your tax dollars at work. Thirty years ago solar and wind generation had to be heavily subsidized with government grants to make them viable in the energy market. Now the technology of both has advanced to the point that it's undercutting all of the other forms of electricity generation, without subsidization.

Government subsidies work. They're effective for getting new technologies off the ground.

[–] Pretzilla@lemmy.world 41 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Good thing we still subsidize petroleum

Good for the oil companies and legislators they own, anyway

[–] nilloc@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Don’t forget the retirees that rely on the stock prices dividend payouts in their 401ks.

Those IRAs and 401ks that are the only alternative after states and corps plundered all the pension systems to buy those politicians.

[–] paraphrand@lemmy.world 34 points 11 months ago (2 children)

They are great. As long as they don’t end up like corn.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 34 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Or oil and coal, propping up bad energy sources while the clean ones have to often fend for themselves and compete against the subsidies.

[–] F_Haxhausen@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Or oil and corn and meat and dairy.

[–] paraphrand@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

The four elements of power.

[–] p1mrx@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago

Solar PV tortillas taste awful and hurt my teeth.

[–] joyjoy@lemm.ee 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So now the coal and oil power plants require government subsidies.

[–] bobs_monkey@lemm.ee 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/04/23/fact-sheet-biden-administration-outlines-key-resources-to-invest-in-coal-and-power-plant-community-economic-revitalization/

No whether or not any of that has been effective I couldn't tell you, especially considering those communities aren't historically fond of democratic administrations.

[–] DanglingFury@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Everything I find shows them as still being subsidized and receiving the lions share of energy subsidies, which is fine in my book.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies_in_the_United_States#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20the,total%20of%20US%20$34%20billion.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago

Everything I find shows them as still being subsidized and receiving the lions share of energy subsidies

According to Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, the bulk of our state and federal subsidies are tilted towards fossil fuels.

As we’ll hear today, the United States subsidizes the fossil fuel industry with taxpayer dollars. It’s not just the US: according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income.

In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry. What do we get for that? Economists generally agree: not much. To quote conservative economist Gib Metcalf: these subsidies offer “little if any benefit in the form of oil patch jobs, lower prices at the pump, or increased energy security for the country.” The cash subsidy is both big and wrong.

It should be noted that your link only explores federal subsidies, while Whitehouse notes the bulk of subsidization that happen at the state and local level. Texas, for instance, invests enormously in public works that benefit fossil fuel producers while offering the administrative offices generous grants and tax forbearances to operate within the state.

Because energy consumption underpins the bulk of our commercial activities, there is a real net-benefit to keeping raw fuel and electricity prices artificially low. Market rate energy would constrict capital construction and real estate development, reduce employment rates, and increase inflation - generally speaking, it would cut into long term economic growth. The OPEC embargo of the 70s demonstrated as much.

At the same time, fossil fuel consumption yields a host of side-effects - degradation of air and water quality, rising global temperatures leading to more sever weather and sea levels which increase the rate of coastal erosion, wholesale destruction of agricultural land and waterways where spills occur, etc.

So subsidies aren't bad on their face, but fossil fuel subsidies - particularly at the scale of current energy consumption - carry far too many negative externalities to be considered good long term policy.

Unfortunately, the political benefits of fossil fuel subsidy continue to outweigh the social consequences, leading to a political class that is financially invested in continuing subsidies that have long since transformed into a net negative for domestic growth.