this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Good. There's no good reason to burn books. Free speech doesn't require absolutism, it requires that we are capable of expressing our ideas. Yelling the N word doesn't express an idea, it's just offense. Ditto book burning. People who are absolutists are pretty much always being assholes.

[–] Moghul@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Burning other people's books is of course bad. Burning your own books? Idk man, you bought it.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Silly argument at the level of "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you". It's not about how you choose to dispose your personal property, it's about regulating a particular political act.

[–] Moghul@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The ban isn't on inciting violence, it's on burning a book.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Burning the quran is functionally incitement to violence.

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Why, is there some reason you associate Islam with violence? I can go ahead and burn a Bible, a Torah, a Mormon Bible, a copy of the Pali Canon and the most danger I am in is getting a strongly worded letter. Is Islam in some particular way different?

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

People keep arguing from first principles as if politics is an abstract question to be solved by correct application of moral reasoning.

I am not talking about Islam in general. I am not interested in that discussion. I am not talking about abstract ideas. I do not care for top down idealism, I care for bottom up pragmatism.

In empirical practice, in our times and in these societies that we live in, this act has consistently increased the level of animosity, has incited violence, and is specifically being used to do those things on purpose. A democratic society can decide to put reasonable limits to it to protect peace and order. The fact that it remains a democratic society means that it retains its right to undo these limits at an appropriate time if it judges them to be hurtful or useless.

Trust democracy.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

If I build my own cross and burn it in front of your house, that's cool then? I don't think it's quite as simple as you imply

[–] Moghul@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Like I said in the other comment, the ban isn't on instigating, it's on burning a book. Also idgaf about the cross

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Look up stochastic terrorism.

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, since you would be in the street and probably get hit by a vehicle. That would be hilarious. Please do this. Please setup a cross right in the street in front of my house to make your point and get struck by a truck.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Way to completely miss the point

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I got your point, such as it is, and it was so clearly bad that mocking it seemed appropriate. There is a difference between targetted harassment of an individual who is a member of the general public and attacking skydaddy. One is a crime with a victim you can identify and the other (like all blasphemy) is a victimless crime. If Allah were real, and not just a plagiarism run through the mind of a warlord genocidal pedophile, it could not be harmed. It could not be afraid. It could not even be resisted. A human can't harm a god, a human can easily hurt a human.

Your entire attempt at comparison was not even worthy of this comment as it was so wrong. If you compared a sneeze to a supernova it would have been closer to comparing fictional Allah to a human. Blasphemy can never ever ever be a crime with a victim.

Now go burn a cross in front of my house, but please make sure to wait a bit as there is still some daylight. I want it to be nice and dark.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The argument I was making was pretty much the kind of reasoning that the Danes are using in their law making. I don't know why you bother even discussing these issues when you are incapable or unwilling of even think about their reasons. Enjoy fighting strawmen.

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Congrats on repeating at repeating a bad comparison. Truly the greatest achievement of all time

[–] Silejonu@kbin.social 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Blasphemy and racism are two very different things.

Blasphemy is a human right.

Besides, there are already laws against hate speech.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Different issue. I'm not debating categories of speech. I'm saying that speech that expresses no ideas but that is significantly hateful to a group of people shouldn't be protected. There are trade offs here: offensive speech that expresses political ideas (beyond "we hate you") is worthwhile and should be balanced against offense it may cause. I know this isn't a nice simple black and white answer but I think the real world isn't nice a simple. There are shades of grey. Other countries might weigh the tradeoffs differently and that's fine. Doesn't make this decision wrong, just that the tradeoffs are weighed differently to your intuitions

[–] Silejonu@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That's a nice word salad to say you support blasphemy laws.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] Silejonu@kbin.social -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So you unambiguously said you support a blasphemy law, but somehow you don't support blasphemy laws? Wake up.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Wtf are you talking about? Show me where I "unambiguously said [I] support a blasphemy law"

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I am sorry you are overally sensitive to your skydaddy being insulted

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Blasphemy the Holy Ghost then deny the existence of Allah and prove it please. As an atheist you should have zero problems committing the unforgivable sins of the Abrahamic faiths.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Oh FFS I'm not jumping through tour stupid hoops. Clearly not capable of a good faith discussion

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Everyone check out the totally real not fake atheist here!

I knew it btw, I knew that anyone advocating cowardly appeasement would have to be afraid of a skydaddy and was so lacking in courage they would even lie.about their beliefs. When the going gets slightly tough we know who hides. Maybe pray harder next time and the zombie-jew will save you ;)

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago

You're an idiot. I feel genuinely sad for you.

[–] Tranus@programming.dev 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Book burnings are bad when they are used to prevent the free sharing of information or ideas. It is a form of censorship. Burning the Quran is not censorship, because this is not an attempt to ban the Quran or prevent anyone from reading it. Its an entirely symbolic gesture. Its comparable to burning the American flag, which I'm guessing you're not so against.

[–] gmtom@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Its an entirely symbolic gesture.

And what does it symbolise?........

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That religion is dogshit and appeasement is cowardly.

[–] gmtom@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Appease these nuts 🤣

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl 2 points 11 months ago

I absolutely agree.

[–] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

I don't disagree but I feel like they should just ban publicly burning books for reasons other than waste disposal. I think it's weird to make an exception for one particular religious book