this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2023
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There should be new heroes, I have a problem just changing existing ones the same way I’d have an issue if Blade, Storm or Falcon were suddenly race swapped. Someone like Miles Morales is a perfect example on an original character that is still Spider-Man. Ironheart is another good example.
It just feels creatively lazy and frankly pandering to keep changing characters for no other reason than to make even more diversity. It makes it seems like new heroes can’t be invented when audiences know this isn’t the case.
Of the top 10 grossing movies last year, all but 2 were remakes/sequels. Those are pandering and creatively lazy too but guess what? They sell! There should be new heroes but we keep going back to the old ones. So there are three options:
What's the harm in occasionally changing their race?
If Batman can change between Adam West, Christian Bale, Michael Keaton, Ben Affleck, Robertt Pattinson and George Clooney and we all just accept that his face, voice and age changes randomly, why can't his skin tone? What has changed?
Does Adam West exist in the same multiverse as Michael Keaton? If not, then why can't the multiverse also have room for a black Batman? Do we have to jump through all sorts of "and we have a multiverse and THAT'S why Batman is black?" And you know what, it'd be cool to have more non white folks as the main character.
No one's saying Black folks can't be new heroes like Morales or Ironheart but what is sacrosanct about an imaginary character's race? Are white people so fragile that we literally can't share our childhood toys?
Because if it was the opposite direction there would be endless outrage. I don’t think it’s okay to change one characters race and not others. Change Storm and Blade then and see how it goes. It’s nothing about fragility, that’s actually insulting. I’m completely fine making more Black/Indigenous/Asian/Latin main characters, they don’t need to be existing ones though where it doesn’t make any sense. Are white kids not allowed to have their existing superheroes too that they see themselves in or is that taboo?
Multiple actors have played Storm and Blade, can we make them Asian or Latin instead?
Yes, and they do! So many of them! Imagine that, there are versions of every super hero that people can see themselves! White Batman? Sure! Black Batman? Sure! Asian Batman? Why not? Does having a Black Batman now mean that no white kids are allowed to be Batman? Absolutely not, that would be absurd! They're Dark Knight Batman, The Batman, 1950s Batman, whatever! That's the whole thing, it's a fictional universe, there's room to play.
Does it make sense their face keeps changing every few adventures?
Because almost all the major characters in fantasy, comics, sci fi and large movies are white. If there were a dearth of white characters, this would be a very different conversation. But there aren't.
I dunno, so far your arguments, as far as I can tell are that: A) It's creatively shallow and pandering to change the character's race in a creatively shallow sequel/reboot/remake. This seems a bizzare place to draw a line.
B) Why can't white people become the Black heroes? Which also seems a little silly. Like, there aren't enough white characters we have to go take over the precious few that are Black? But even then, if Hollywood got down with race changing characters, sure, go the other way too. But let's get a few major moneymakers switching races before we demand that famous Black characters go white.
I appreciate the way you responded to this and I understand where you’re coming from. I don’t have much to add because I feel like you covered it all to be honest. I think my view of what you described was how the comics have done it, Tim Fox is black Batman, Spider-Gwen is female Spider-Man etc. so there is something for everyone.
Edited: Accidentally used the wrong name for Tim Fox, I used the authors name instead of the characters.
Thanks! A civil online discussion about a potentially heated topic? Lemmy truly is a lovely place!
You're playing into corporate's hands by assuming audiences cannot relate to a narrative if the actors don't resemble them in some fashion. Their interests are served by having you buy into such a notion. They run social media sock-puppet accounts espousing it everywhere you care to look (like throwing spaghetti at a wall, if we just talk about it enough maybe some of it will stick!). The problem is that the notion is bullshit.
I love The Wire. It's the best show about policing. I have nothing in common with black Americans barely living above the poverty line, though. Not behaviour, not worldview, not skin tone, not dress sense. Yet these characters make up three quarters of the cast; and I empathised and sympathised with them all the same. By the same token Lord of the Rings has a broad, enduring reach well beyond the Anglosphere.
I think much of the fuss over representation in modern media comes down to content producers trying to tailor the consumer to their product. They want us preoccupied with it. And when they're caught out or backed into a corner on the matter, rather than fess up and admit they have industrial and institutional pressures to deal with (actor employment, Blackrock ESG gamification, etc), they suggest critics are racist instead. Perhaps that really is a better strategic approach than a policy of honesty and respect for the public's intelligence. But it doesn't make it true.
You're misunderstanding the argument and offering a pretty facile counter-argument.
The misunderstanding is narrative v aspiration. We are talking about movies and tv shows for children, like Star Wars, the MCU, Star Trek etc. No one is saying people don't understand or can't relate to a narrative if the characters don't resemble them. The argument is that non white kids should have large, classic, mainstream heroes who resemble them too. Rather than just the Enterprise's tactical officer or engineer but rather, the captain.
Meanwhile, the argument that content producers are trying to tailor the consumer to the product is, at best, a rather silly notion. If anything, content producers want as broad a base as possible. Unless you believe Netflix wants to be Blackflix, Prime as LatinoPrime etc it's just nonsensical on its face. And the idea that content producers want us only to care about diversity just comes right out of a silly right wing playbook where any discussion of race or gender is indoctrination being foisted on the unwitting masses. In reality, the folks who complain about the very notion of race swapping a classic character seem to be the ones obessed about race ("Oh no! An imaginary space captain is a different skin tone than the first actor who played that pretend space man!") The simple truth that most media, for pretty much its entirety, has catered to white men. Things slowly started improving so that women and minorities could participate but rarely as the lead. Now, people are rightfully looking at that as boring and as outdated as Leave it to Beaver.