this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2022
3 points (80.0% liked)
Europe
3904 readers
30 users here now
Europa
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
First of all, estimated by whom, Al Jazeera? Second, Azov is a militia, so its members are full time paramilitaries who train and fight. The people who support Azov are much larger, but the point is there influence in government. Most Ukrainian people are not Nazis, I hope, which is why they are being liberated. Another point, Azov is one of many neo-nazi battalions and groups. These are just the most notorious, and the ones that have been tied to the most brutal acts and demonstrations.
The fact that these groups and ideologies are completely normalized now in many parts of Ukraine is, or was, a great concern. Lots of good documentaries on this btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWM4lChqy4
Well, yes. They're generally a pretty high quality source, though you have to watch for bias especially around Qatar. If you have another source that isn't wildly biased, by all means bring it forward. I'm not assuming that this article is correct.
Damn, when people reference an invasion by the US as "liberation" it is now tongue in cheek, referencing Dick Cheney's infamous words "We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." I didn't expect that to be applied to a Russian invasion that is clearly opposed by the vast majority of Ukrainians. But here we are. "Liberated" at gunpoint.
It is a concern. You know what isn't helping? Invading the fucking country. Ukraine's civil society has to have breathing room to purge itself of toxic elements like Azov and corruption. The constant menace and now outright invasion by Russia leaves little flexibility there. Ukraine gets left with no good options. If Ukraine was left alone with some appropriate amount of diplomatic pressure, it could absolutely deal with issues with Azov.
Actually, the most famous usage of that word by the US was the liberation of Europe from the Nazis. So I think it works well.
You really think so? Because earlier you were telling me that the Nazi thing was overblown. Just a guy "calling Putin a Jew" every now and then. I'm glad we've convinced you.
Ukraine government has no interest in getting rid of the fascists. In fact, they have to appease them in some respects or else they will get another violent Maidan coup against them this time. If you watch the mini documentary I linked, you can see Azov supporters set up a guillotine outside a government building in Kiev.
I don't trust they are capable or even want to get rid of the neo-nazi paramilitaries. They are integrated into their military. In the US we recently banned extremist ideologies. Ukraine can't do that without turning these forces against themselves. They too are held hostage if they want a unified front to defeat the Donbas republics.
There are also still many sympathetic to them in positions of power. We've seen even more evidence of this recently.
I’m curious, are you pro-invasion because of these thoughts, or are you trying to make some point that isn’t coming through?
Pro/against doesn't really matter at this point because Russia has already decided to intervene in Ukraine. I am a materialist and I try to concern myself with the objective reality of what is, not people's subjective ideas of what should be. But since Russia has already made this decision, I still support them.