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Hamas official says group aims to repeat Oct. 7 onslaught many times to destroy Israel
(www.timesofisrael.com)
this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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Ok, I have to ask. How would you apply this to any other conflict. For example the Allies fighting against Germany. Where did the German civilians fall in the spectrum of evil. Was fighting Germany justified, knowing that German civilians might suffer? If so, how is this situation different?
Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.
So like... don't do that? Maybe Israel shouldn't do that, because fucking obviously?
Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.
You're not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.
None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I'm sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.
But you're still ok with using artillery against a city if the city has an army in it?
What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?
I asked how this conflict was different and you started talking about a completely different topic like stategic bombing. But Israel isn't using strategic bombing, they're using artillery and missiles. Just like how the allies did against Berlin and other German cities when fighting the Germans. So how is this different?
The difference is that Israel has been colonising the west bank for over 70 years. They are the aggressors. They are more analogous to the Nazis in WWII for that reason anyway.
And yes, just like there were bad actors on the allied side in WWII, Hamas is also a bad actor.
This isn't... COMPLICATED.
Honestly that's a pretty strange thing to say about one of history's most complicated and oldest conflicts. If it was as simple as random dudes online think it is, don't you think this issue would have been somehow resolved by now?
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have tribal roots in the region dating back thousands of years.
The region also has religions significance to all three of the big western religions.
And to make it even more complicated, the region has been under the control of multiple empires over the last 3000 years: waring tribes, Egyptians, Assyrians, Romans, Byzantines, the second Muslim caliphate, the Ottomans, the British, and I'm sure I'm skipping more. Israel and Palestine as nations where effectively created at around the same time post WW1 (see the Mandate for Palestine and the Balfour Declaration).
So sure.. It's possible that you're so much smarter than everyone else that one of the world's oldest conflicts is trivial to you, OR, just maybe it's a little bit more complicated than you and some other people let on...
This is why it's happening: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4962369/user-clip-joe-biden-israel-usa-invent-israel-protect-interest-region
"Were there not an Israel the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region."
Biden has reiterated this sentiment since this situation has started. His stance is completely unchanged. He admits openly that it is a power play, so any posturing about a "sacred bond" or whatever is bullshit.
It is power politics. The US is propping up Israel as a projection of power, and with that Israel has become ever more fascist without any accountability, and they have perpetrated a genocide because they have the power to, just like any state would in those circumstances, because they are all sociopathic institutions. That's it. There's nothing special about the Jewish nature of the state, it's got nothing to do with religion, that's just an excuse that gets laid over the top of what is simple exploitation.
It's a land grab and a genocide, and Hamas was propped up by Israel to serve their interests at the time. In fact you could say they're still serving Israel's interests, because Israel the state has no real interest in protecting their own civilians, they only want their land grab.
The "it's complicated" bullshit is just there to muddy the waters. It's a lazy handwave to cover the fact that you can't excuse genocide.
The Balfour Declaration, which put the creation of Israel into play, was created by the British during WW1, at a time when the entire region was under the control of the Ottoman Empire.:
It's obvious that Israel is the strongest and most strategically important ally that America has in the region today, nobody can deny that. Just like nobody can deny that Hamas, the ruling entity of Gaza for almost 15 years, is allied with and strategically important to Iran, Russia, and many of Israel and America's other big geological adversaries. Iran supported Hamas' recent terrorist attack on Israel because they understood that they, an Islamic theocracy, would benefit from the chaos of what appears to some as a religious war. Similarly, Russia wants chaos in the region in a desperate attempt to divert western military resources away from supporting Ukraine.
To me, none of that makes the situation simpler.
As for the clip you've linked, the first Arab-Israeli war was more than 20 years prior to that. And, taken in context, Biden was arguing against the Reagan administration's plans to arm Saudi Arabia, and to that point I'm not really convinced that he was wrong...
As for claims of genocide, I'm afraid that cuts both ways:
1988 Charter of Hamas
So yeah, if you think the modern world's oldest geopolitical conflict is simple, then you're either way smarter than everyone else or you're mentally reducing the problem until it confirms your existing biases. Personally I think it's more complicated than you're making it out to be, which is why it hasn't been settled by 100 years of diplomacy and war.
You tried to bury this in details, but your entire explanation boils down to "US sponsors their puppet and the US's enemies sponsor the enemies of the US's puppet". It's a proxy war. That's really about it.
You literally just admitted that it is power politics but you tried to pretend like that complicates the situation in any way.
Yes, there are more details, there are lots of things being said by different actors who all have their own idiosyncratic beliefs and ideas, many of which are fueled by ongoing conflict, but the reason the conflicts in this part of the world are so intractable doesn't come down to those details. It comes down to the fact that the middle east has reserves of oil that are strategically significant. They are in the middle of a geopolitical tug of war.
Messy doesn't mean complicated.
And none of this excuses the wholesale slaughter of civilians. That part in particular is not at all complicated.
Israel pulled out of Palestine in 2005 and Palestine elected their own government, at that point they're an independent nation.
Oh good, so IDF snipers shooting Palestinian children in 2019 couldn't be happening: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-21/ty-article/.premium/the-protest-dispersed-then-an-israeli-sniper-shot-a-9-year-old-boy-in-the-head/0000017f-e3ff-d9aa-afff-fbffde890000
I'm sure this was necessary to get to the extremely small Hamas bunker that was surgically implanted in his skull, because those bastards were using him as a human shield.
Similar story much more recently: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65812442
That kid was two years old. Must've been a really small bunker.
Seems like a really common tactic, apparently the rates of Palestinian children being shot by the IDF was increasing before this latest situation started: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
Yup, good thing Israel left and this couldn't possibly be happening.
I read the BBC article on the recent shooting, you're right, it's tragic and wrong. Two gunmen shot up a settlement and then started exchanging fire with an IDF unit and the child was shot in the crossfire. This is awful, but has nothing to do with Palestine being an independent nation since this happened in the west bank, not the Gaza strip, which as I understand it, are different.
Also, this article (which is the only one I can access) seems to be posted in bad faith, the whole tragic situation started by a bunch of people opening fire on random Israeli citizens. But there's no mention of this at all when you're decrying Israeli violence. And the same for your talk about "Strategic Bombing", that no one is doing, or the political situation in the west bank (which is different from the Gaza strip).
Wow, incredible that the IDF just happens to accidentally shoot dozens of Palestinian children every year. Tragic. Surely there can be no assignment of blame here.
And I don't bother explaining what's wrong with Hamas because this thread isn't full of Hamas apologists, it's full of Israel apologists.