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A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War (jacobin.com)

submitted 2 years ago by jorgesumle to c/ukraine@lemmy.ml

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[–] snowcrash@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

The problem with this take, and all braindead takes like this, is it assumes Ukrainians get no vote in how they are governed. The EU, NATO, and basically all western institutions are voluntary. You can join if you meet these conditions. And guess what, people are clamouring to join. No-one held a gun to Finland or Sweden's head to make them discard historical neutrality to apply to NATO. They simply saw how Russia was trying to use guns in Ukraine.

Similarly, Ukraine chose the west. Calling the MAIDAN uprising a western coup denies them a voice. Yanukovych was voted in under the promise that he would tighten bonds with the West. Then after he gets voted in, he tears up the pending agreement with the EU. So people protest against this. Yanukovych baited and switched everyone.

[–] jorgesumle -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They really got no vote: no elections, no opposition political parties, no way to leave the country if you want, huge oligarchy, a lot of corruption, huge debt...

And guess what, people are clamouring to join

I'm clamouring to leave, and many people as well.

the Ukraine chose the west.

You talk like Ukraine was unified place, like western and southern Ukraine were the same. Did Crimea choose the West? Did Donbass?

[–] snowcrash@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They really got no vote: no elections, no opposition political parties, no way to leave the country if you want, huge oligarchy, a lot of corruption, huge debt…

Did you ignore the part where I said they voted for a politician who said he would strengthen ties to the West? Then did the opposite? Then the people took to the streets until he fled the country?

I’m clamouring to leave, and many people as well.

To leave your country, or to have your country leave NATO/EU/western alliances/etc? I'm sure you could try and convince people in your country to leave NATO, but NATO support is generally at a long-time high right now.

You talk like Ukraine was unified place, like western and southern Ukraine were the same. Did Crimea choose the West? Did Donbass?

It's an imagined community for sure. If you think consent can only be granted if it's by every individual rather than a collective in a democratic vote, then sure. I think most people think democratic votes are the best expression of the people's will. It's hardly perfect, but certainly better than a self-appointed vanguard.

[–] jorgesumle -2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Did you ignore the part where I said they voted for a politician who said he would strengthen ties to the West? Then did the opposite? Then the people took to the streets until he fled the country?

No, note that I'm using the present tense. I don't believe what politicians say. They both lied.

To leave your country, or to have your country leave NATO/EU/western alliances/etc? I’m sure you could try and convince people in your country to leave NATO, but NATO support is generally at a long-time high right now.

Both.

but NATO support is generally at a long-time high right now.

I don't think so. They had to start a propaganda operation to boost support of NATO on social networks, because people are getting tired of socio-economic problems, and most people are tired of warmongers that only fill the pockets of the arms industries.

If you think consent can only be granted if it’s by every individual rather than a collective in a democratic vote, then sure. I think most people think democratic votes are the best expression of the people’s will. It’s hardly perfect, but certainly better than a self-appointed vanguard.

"Democratic" states are mostly controlled by oligarchs. I recommend to read the book the Ego and its own to understand why democracy is garbage. Not even half of the people with voting rights voted on 2019 Ukrainian elections, Crimea and separatist Donbass not included, so well...