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this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2023
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Eh. The older I get, the more neutral and apathetic I get. Everything seems to come from some direction with a degree of bias.
It's like fed articles on the war in Ukraine. If things were as positive as articles from both sides regularly claim, it wouldn't be where it is in Sep 2023. I get propaganda is also used to positively influence morale and support—and I encourage it for Ukraine—but it sure would be nice to see more unbiased reporting and posting. As it is, just got to kind of determine a median of the propaganda and that's likely the actual situation.
The most frustrating part about not being influenced by propaganda is that pro-Russia and pro-Ukraine people that have been susceptible to propaganda will attack you from both directions at the same time. Regardless of the topic/issue, this seems to be a good indicator that you're closely aligned to fact rather than story.
Edit: I see my lagged and incoming downvotes are the aforementioned pro-xxxxx doing exactly as I said they do. As far as I'm concerned, it's downvoting the opinion of accurate information distributed to allow critical assessment of individuals—since that's obviously the opposite of propaganda. I'd be interested to know the opinion of why someone downvoted me since the topic is about propaganda. If it's because you're pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine, well, thank you for participating in proving the point. The confirmation would be good though as long as it doesn't turn into an off-tipic debate around the War in Ukraine, which isn't actually the topic here, just an example used of the thousands but chosen for it's comminality and relevance right now
My big brain moment was when I realized that my interest in studying the conflict itself was the result of propaganda.
Haha. A positive side-effect. Do you have any good sources for people like me that care but have their energy spent elsewhere? I'm exhausted on climate, domestic racism, and equal opportunity. It doesn't mean I don't care about everything else, I just literally don't have capacity to cover it all, and that's what propaganda and bias agenda preys on.
Especially online, opinion is readily available. Information is becoming rarer.
You are one person and you can do only so much. If you aren't directly affected by the war and you aren't able to meaningfully change anything then why waste the energy?
If you really want to help people and make a difference, start with your local community. So many people tune in to listen to Ukrainian generals but they wont ever attend the council meetings in their own town.
Thanks. That's genuinely refreshing to hear and motivating :)
Yah, putting Russian propaganda on the same level as Ukraine propaganda is incredibly pro Russian. Looking at the measurable damage caused, how Russia is using it's propaganda machine to trick people into fighting a war they don't even understand, under false pretenses. Ukraine may say they'd doing better than they are, or over exaggerate something Russia does, but they are no where near the same level.
Thanks for the response!
Could you explain how it's misguided, though? I know I'm loosely landing on a reliance of median. And keeping in mind this could be topical to worker's rights, climate change, native land title, drug use, socioeconomics, etc. basically more common examples where people may be aware or unaware of propaganda. If I'm missing out on insight without realising, I obviously would appreciate more perspectives to improve. Propaganda is a sneaky thing and it's very likely I don't have it illuminated as much as I think.
Russia is using propaganda to trick people into fighting a war. A war they are telling everyone there winning, so it looks less risky, and with the promises of a payout they will never get. They're also did things like calling a cease fire to allow people to evacuate, to look nice, then shelling them as they do. They're bombing hospitals and saying it's because Ukraine stored war materials there, when footage clearly shows they didn't. Their lies and propaganda are being used to directly kill thousands.
Ukraine may say they're doing better than they are, or blow something Russia does out of proportion, but it's no where near the same level, unless you can show me parallels I'm not aware of.
With all this is mind, you're treating both as the same. They are not. Saying they are equal in their impact or motive is a very Pro Russia stance.
You might want to look at US/UA propaganda again, but critically. It seems like you've got severely affected by it.
Maybe. Or maybe I haven't at all and instead you have, so that's why you feel that way.
The reason I brought this up because my impression reading @saltsec's message is that he's trying to identify propaganda and lower it's influence on his opinion. And you bring up entirely another axis comparing different propaganda's and relaying pro-western talking points about the two. The fact that you thought it was important to bring here and encourage this person to trust one propaganda more than other is quite a bad sign.
I did this because he brought it up as an example and said they were equal in what they were doing. They are not. That's why I brought it up. If he seeing propaganda from both sides as equal, that is an indicator you have fallen victim to the propaganda.
The fact that I call out Russia as a known liar that uses its propaganda to hurt people, whereas Ukraine uses it in an entirely separate way, to gain support, that's a bad sign? I would say viewing all propaganda as equal is a bad sign. Propaganda comes in many forms, from encouraging people to sign up for the military, to saying the people you are fighting are Nazis and not real people, which does damage.
Like I said to him, the context and content of propaganda are just as important as the fact it is propaganda. Only looking at it as an "it is or isn't" black-and-white mindset ignores all nuance and isn't a way to have a proper discussion around it.
But I'm not talking about the Ukraine War.
How it's presented in coverage and online discourse is being used as an example for the actual main topic.
This is my point. The topic is the scale of effectiveness of propaganda—I'm sure OP is like, "wtf have I caused" rn.
So all that information you just gave me about further details of an example that could've been any topic, kind of shows a scale of the effectiveness of propaganda. You've attempted to include Russian use of propaganda in there—kind of almost back on topic—but it's still got nothing to do with the topic in general. The passion and the assumption, the need to tell me stuff you know about insert example as though I challenged it, when I simply mentioned it, without bias, as an example.
This is why I have confidence some pro-Russian person is seething ready to go as well and tell me all the stuff they've read on their side of news and social media, even though I'm not asking for or even indicating to wanting a discussion or opinions about the bloody Ukraine War.
"You are not immune to propaganda."
Edit: Mate. Seriously. I called this out as a precursor and you quoted it. I thought you were going to give some insight on better discerning it.
Edit Edit: Also, sorry if I sound like an asshole. I'm think I'm really good at that without realising. Reddit trauma, maybe. I'd buy you a beer and have chats I could :)
I get that it's being used as an example and I'm saying your example is either flawed or biased.
This is extremely naive though. By taking two things that are not equal and implying they are is biased. It would be like taking a local gang and comparing them to the Nazis and saying they both have propaganda. The gang uses spray paint tags and the Nazis have a propaganda machine. It's a false equivalency. Using your logic I could say "Well WW2 both the US and Germany used propaganda." Yes they both did, but one used it for recruiting while the other used it in the aid of finding and killing minorities. Saying either side would get mad about the other becomes moot when you realize the context of the propaganda.
Yes, I'm sure they are. But again, you are taking a country that has committed war crimes and comparing its actions to a country trying to defend itself and acting like all things are equal. You're seemingly purposefully ignoring context and reality. I would go so far as to say that implying they are equal is dangerous.
And neither are you, no one is. Which is why we need to discuss them and the context around the propaganda. Look into it, and fact check things said. Not act like all propaganda is equal. I would say by you putting them on a level playing field that one side has done its job by discrediting the other and you've fallen victim to that.
And I thought you would be insightful enough to not look at propaganda through a pinhole.
Without going into as much depth; I think that we are now actually aligning since we're back on track. However, with the exception that propaganda comes in many channels and forms, just as any effective marketing campaign breaks down the segmented targets and most effective ways of delivery. But I feel like you'd agree, it's just a response to what you said about the comparison of gangs to Nazis. Same shit; different methods of influence for different groups of society.
You are again unnecessarily bringing in information about the Ukraine War that I simply don't care about in this thread of comments, BUT mostly starting to use it as an example utilisation of propagating, and that's why I thought it was an example everyone would be familiar with.
Historically, we see propaganda active most during war and times of turmoil or human/societal competition. It's either divide and conquer, or recruit to conquer. The present and future will see the same and I maintain your initial responses is an example of its taint—not big, but there. Else, why would this discourse be where it's at now? Especially where, in the end and as I said, we seem to actually be aligned. There aren't differences to put aside, just something in the back of the mind that jumps to assumption...for some reason.
And you may well be right about influence on me, though I'd like to maintain that at no point have I actually raised opinion or a stance on anything, except propaganda...I think. If not, did my best as that's all I was thinking :)
I mean it is going in Ukraine's direction. By all metrics they should've lost by now.
If Ukraine holds out for 10 years before they lose they still lost. The problem is that Russia, as always has beating hearts they are willing to send into the war machine to be ground up. And they have more than Ukraine.
Nah Russia tries to front a stronger economy than they have. Already people are pretty unhappy.
Putin's own people are starting to flee and cannibalize one another.
I feel like pro Ukraine propaganda and pro Russia propaganda is pretty easy to spot and ignore if you actually follow the events happening on the battlefield, and not what any major or semi major news outlets post.
How do you follow the events on the battlefield without checking the news outlets?
There is a big community of open source intelligence folks on Twitter. They accurately and verifiably geo locate all the photos and videos from any given day.
From that info you can get an idea of where the fighting is currently taking place, where Ukraine positions are and where Russians positions are. So you can see who is advancing, where, and by how much.
That's the most accurate way I've found to be in the know about who's currently doing better and who is currently doing worse.
Yeah, that's the issue. If people don't have capacity to focus on the details but still care. Many people are exhausted with their day but still care about what's going on so they look for a report, a summary, a breakdown. That seems to be where propaganda can seep in. Rather than "actual", they get...well whatever bias their source has.
Another great example is political votes for new leaders, referendums, legislation, etc. A lot of people don't have time to track it all and go through it all, but obviously care. If there's propaganda battles going on, very quickly can those people—often the majority—become divided instead of informed.
Very good points, it makes sense too because the individual you described in your first paragraph is probably the majority of people, besides the people who don't care at all. So it makes sense that they would be the target of propaganda and it's just icing on the cake they're the easier group to fool/manipulate.