this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
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I think people are thrown off by anti NATO stance. I almost don't blame people for confusing NATO opposition for Russia support, especially during on ongoing Russian invasion, which does seem to justify NATO's existence. Nevermind NATO's history of imperialist action, people are very tied up in the Ukraine war and are unwilling to cede any ground to anything that may appear even a little soft on Russia.
Right, people are treating it as sports where you have to either cheer for one side or the other.
My issue with hexbearians was that in every single thread I saw them in they would do nothing but whatabout regardless of the context. I understand they may have good points about certain things and to their credit some had very well written and informative comments but most of the time they weren't directly relevant to the topic. It could be a loud minority but it doesn't change the fact it's annoying to see huge threads of whatabout arguments all the time by them.
In my view, having consistent moral standards is a prerequisite for having an honest discussion on any topic. If anything, the actual whataboutism is pointing fingers at other countries while refusing to acknowledge what your own country is doing. People should focus on fixing problems at home and holding their own governments accountable first and foremost because that's where they have most agency.
This is what people who you accuse of whataboutism point out. Focusing on countries you don't like and talking about how bad they are when your own country does the same things simply serves to deflect attention and to create the impression that your own society is somehow better and more enlightened. This is how the west often justifies the atrocities it commits.
getting called out for your bullshit on any topic pertains to the discussion, we've had problems with all crowds.
"whataboutism" does not mean "you're never allowed to point out a double standard"
You know whataboutism isn't an actual logical fallacy and was originally used in defense of British colonialism "well the IRA also does bad things" right?
Again, my point was that people should focus on themselves and what their countries are doing. Your "well the IRA also does bad things" is precisely the kind of deflection I'm arguing against.
I'm replying to the person you're replying to.
Ah gotcha
To be fair one country was invaded by the other. It is entirely understandable to back the party that was invaded by the other nation especially when that nation has a recent history of imperialism.
Last I checked, what actually happened was that Ukraine was plunged into a civil war after US ran a coup in 2104 that overthrew the democratically elected government.
Russia was invited into the conflict by LPR and DPR which it recognized independence of. This follows the precedent NATO set in Yugoslavia where it recognized breakaway regions and intervened on their behalf.
You might want to edit the errors in your comment if you want people to take you seriously.
The LPT and DPR were legitimate why exactly? That's the part that makes the claim less than accurate.
I don't need to edit anything, the LPR and DPR were every bit as legitimate as the regions that broke away from Yugoslavia. What exactly are you claiming is the difference between the two scenarios?
That's a bold claim to make given neither region were their own nation or were historically Russian or Ukrainian.
Yugoslavia was formed if multiple countries untied by socialism. The LPR and DPR as breakaway units are not the sane and seem to have been very heavily influenced by Russia. That's the same imperialistic Russia that keeps invading foreign lands to seize them since Putin was elected.
Ukraine was formed by USSR. Are you just utterly historically illiterate?
The political entity was created by the USSR. The nation has existed for centuries. Do you know the difference between a nation and a state? Would you deny that Kurdistan exists as a nation?
The discussion is about LPR and DPR regions not some abstract notion of Ukraine.
Which are abstractions themselves so we are in fact discussing the concept if a nation vs a state. Before 1917 people recognized an area called Ukraine populated by Ukrainian people. LDR and DPR do not have that history in fact the Russian element is there due to the legacy of racist policies of the USSR that wanted these areas to have a Russian dominated population so they moved them there.
The LDR and DPR aren't nations like Ukraine has been for centuries and the attempt to cast them as legitimate breakaway areas is just Kremlin propaganda to justify traditional Russian imperialism.
You're just engaging in sophistry here. LPR and DPR are two well defined regions of the current state known as Ukraine. This is exactly the same situation as Yugoslavia. Every argument you've made equally applies to regions of Yugoslavia that separated. Russia just followed NATO precedent intervening on the behalf of the regions whose independence was recognized by Russia. You can keep doing mental gymnastics here all you like, but that's the reality of the situation.
No they aren't the same, if they were the same you could find documentation about their history. For fucks sake if they were equivalent the regions and people would have names like Serbians did while Yugoslavia existed.
There no gymnastics being done on my part. You have just uncritically accepted the imperialist propaganda from the Kremlin. Weird that you are on Lemmy.ML and are overtly supporting fascism...
What are you even talking about here, you're saying there is no history of the people who were part of Yugoslavia?
The only one uncritically accepting imperialist propaganda here is you buddy. You're the one who is supporting literal self described fascist. Maybe do some self reflection on that.
No Im saying the DPR and ZLPR aren't nations with people tied to that nation like Ukranians have been for centuries. Those areas were Ukrainian until the Soviets moved ethnic Russians there to make it Russian dominant.
Im not supporting any fascists but you are backing Putin who has an undeniable history of imperialism and fascism.
You're just showing complete and utter ignorance of Slavic history here. However, even in your ramblings you admit that people currently living in LRP and DPR (which you evidently can't spell even), are predominantly of Russian ethnicity and hence want to be part of Russia.
You very clearly support a fascist regime that took power in a violent coup in Ukraine in 2014. Here's western media reporting on your friends
and here's what they've been up to since 2014 as even CNN reported at the time
You're a fash simp plain and simple.
Tell me more how you are the educated one when you are spitting fascist propaganda. The fact that people want to be part of Russia does not give Russia the right to invade and steal children.
While both nations have far right neo nazis only one government, Russia, has granted them authority and promotes fascism abroad.
you openly ally with literal fascists, I have nothing more to say to you
Last I checked I didn't. I don't support the GOP. I'm not a fan of Putin or frankly any Russian government. I'm not a fan of Ukraine's government either but they were clearly invaded as a result of Putin's imperialistic desires.
Now if you support the GOP or the Kremlin you might be allied with fascists. There is a weird history of fascists being supported by Marxist-Leninists
No, Ukraine was invaded because of NATO expansion. In fact, Stoltenberg has now publicly acknowledged that Putin made clear to NATO in a draft treaty before the war that it could avert it if NATO agreed not to keep enlarging. But NATO rejected the offer.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine
So maybe stop lying and stop supporting the fascist regime in Ukraine that your government installed there in a violent coup.
These are the people you are allied with, and if that doesn't give you a pause then what else is there to say about you as a person https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TojapQRUhzs
No Ukraine was invaded because Russia wants Ukrainian resources. It is why they have invaded SO MANY other nations.
Russia's imperialism is obvious and undeniable. Authoritarians will always back other authoritarians I guess.
Repeating nonsense over and over isn't going to make it true baby Goebbels.
Lol, says the one supporting the actual overt fascists
You're literally the one who is supporting actual overt fascists here. I love how you still haven't even acknowledged this fact. You are utterly morally bankrupt. Maybe go do a bit of self reflection on the fact that your views perfectly align with people who tattoo themselves in swastikas.
You mean like the founder of The Wagner Group? He has SS logos on his neck. It's almost as if both sides have some fascists but only Russia has one in the highest office.
Zelensky is Jewish ffs.
Last I checked the wagner group isn't part of the Russian government, but keep on lying since that's all you've been doing here this whole time. Show me a single actual Russian government official who claims to be a fascist. Meanwhile, entire Ukrainian political elite are openly fascist as well as all your nazi friends in US who support them. I've provided you with plenty of sources clearly showing this to be the case. Ukraine doesn't have some fascists, it's run by a fascist regime, and the fact that you won't even acknowledge this says everything I need to know about you as a person. Zelensky being Jewish doesn't mean anything. Next, thing you'll tell me Israel isn't a fascist apartheid state because it's run by Jews. You are so lost.
You are allied with literal self described fascists and you openly champion their cause.
They aren't part of the government they just are regularly hired by them, are staffed at the top levels with Kremlin loyalists and carry out the Kremlin's goals.
Suuuure they totally aren't Russian.
Again Putin himself is advocating fascism and all the fascists seem allied with Russia on this issue.
Maybe you are completely confused what fascism is? After all you are mentally deficient enough to buy into Leninism.
They're a PMC, and fascism isn't the ideology of the PMC. Meanwhile, official battalions like azov are openly fascist, and fascists are part of the actual government in Ukraine. The fact that you keep trying to equate the two shows that you're an utterly morally bankrupt liar.
Also, nowhere does Putin advocate for fascism. Stop lying. I know what fascism is, but either you don't or you just lie. And I'm done talking to you nazi. Bye.
They are a PMC that is trained by and acts on behalf of the Kremlin. This would be like claiming Blackwater had no ties to the USA.
Meanwhile Putin is a fascist and fascists everywhere from Trump to Orban are echoing Russian talking points.
Just because you are an authoritarian doesn't mean you should support fascism.
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lmfaoooo
you'll literally shill anything. Anyone who reads this knows the shit you're selling, they ain't buying lol
https://www.reuters.com/world/cuba-arrests-17-trafficking-young-men-fight-russia-ukraine-2023-09-08/
This is really a non-sequitur but I have zero idea how people choose to upvote it downvote anymore. You and I were in agreement and somehow I got upvoted and you got downvoted? I don't get it
lol, I have a following of a few very angry liberals on here :)
There was an interesting writeup from someone on hexbear as to why they opposed the war in Ukraine. It was fascinating reading such a nuanced take on the conflict that completely ignored Russia's imperialistic attitudes that Putin displayed from the moment he took office. It was really interesting reading someone who was really well informed to a point but seemed to not see past that point.
I don't even really think it's that they don't see that point, it's that they don't want the US intervening in any more conflicts because the US always picks that side that's closest aligned with their own capitalist/imperial goals, and the struggle for worker solidarity is the dominant dialectical struggle they're interested in. If the US showed any interest in assisting a socialist project be successful, they might feel more comfortable with the US's involvement, but that's historically not been the case (nor would that make sense in that particular dialectical materialist worldview).