this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France's state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

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[–] jerd@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Religious freedom is a human right. Self determination is a human right. As long as whatever you do does not cause a negative impact on other people (see the second right) or society at large, then gtfo.

[–] gnygnygny@lemm.ee 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is no "second right" in France. The law is simple : Don't wear visible religious sign at school. There are private religious schools if you disagree with the public system.

[–] bric@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is it so insane to think there could be a school with both religious and areligious people at the same time? A secular school that doesn't support a religion, but allows students to express themselves how they choose? When did that become a radical idea?

[–] gnygnygny@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not insane, but this separation has been done in 1905. In France the state is separated from the church (and by extension the religious). It's not radical it takes roots in the principle of equality.

[–] bric@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Separation of church and state is always a good thing, I'm not arguing against that, but this feels like a whole different level. If anything, this is the state taking an active role in changing the rules of the church. That's not separation, that's state sponsored atheism

[–] gnygnygny@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

The public schools are the one from the state. Those one are separate from the church. But everybody can go tothe private schools those can be religious or not.

That's secularism, not atheism.

[–] smollittlefrog@lemdro.id -1 points 1 year ago

Students should express themselves how they choose.

That's why you protect them from indoctination/religion forcing a certain outfit upon them.

[–] Estebiu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"Self determination is a human right" There's nothing I agree more on. Unfortunately some muslim communities do not agree, and the men and the women aren't on the same level. Many women are forced to port the abaya and other vests that cover their figure in entirety, and I don't think they should be forced to if they don't want to. 85% of the muslim women in France that I know do not want to port it, but they're obligated by their family. Banning it entirely is not the perfect solution, but it's a step in the the direction of eradicating religions in France. The time of Christianity and Islam is way beyond us.

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i like the slow stumble from "self-determination is a human right" to "eradicating religions in france"

"85% of the muslim women in france ᵗʰᵃᵗ ᶦ ᵏⁿᵒʷ" really adds to the experience too, thank you

[–] Estebiu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 year ago

Yeah, sorry, I didn't exprime myself correctly here. Let me rephrase it:

If you want to be christian or muslim, please be, I don't have nothing against you. But I'm not ok with parents forcing their religion down the throats of their kids.

And, let's face it, religion it's at an all time low, especially with newer generations like mine, and I don't like how boomers force their kids to "go to church", "dress in a certain manner", ecc, when the kids don't even believe.

[–] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Nope. Religion should be banned.

Also the girls are likely forced to do that so you are Dubble wrong.

[–] Flyswat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I don't deny that there are occurrences where some girls are forced. What about the 95% others?

You can't put forth a law punishing the majority for a "likely". What happened to the "Liberté Egalité Fraternité" which this liberticide law is obviously trampling?

The population has been fed the islamophobic narrative long enough to have such laws pass without anybody thinking about how ridiculous they are (replace hijab/abaya with dreadlocks or other piece of clothing... What do other people care?). The divide is so deep and constantly maintained by the politicians who, since they find no real answers the actual problems plaguing the day to day life of citizen, prefer to turn them against each other: divide to better rule.

[–] Project_Straylight@lemmy.villa-straylight.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Having gone to school with many muslims, sadly, it's more like 4/5. As in, 4 out of 5 of those girls are forced to wear their religious garment. If they don't it's seen as shameful for their entire family.

Some are beaten but most of them are given a free choice: they can choose not to wear it and leave their family (and most friends). Or they can choose to abide and show how much they love god. Not many 10 year old girls choose to leave their family though.

And the other 1/5th are the full on religious fruitcakes.

[–] Flyswat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have anecdotal experiences too: my sister is Muslim and was wearing hijab in France. Of her own will. My parents argued repeatedly AGAINST it because of all the problems she'd have (and she did have) in that glorious free country. But she wouldn't budge, because she didn't want a human to dictate to her what she could wear.

In many places such dress code is more cultural than religious. From the religious point of view, yes women are to wear it however one cannot FORCE them to. In some places they do, but the scripture does not allow this.

In secular countries people do not know the difference or don't even bother because it mostly affects non whites. Instead of tracking the cases where there is abuse and dealing with them accordingly, they just ban it wholesale across the board. It's like banning knives because some people use them violently.

[–] Aux@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

You can practice your religion inside your home. Once you're out in public you should respect others and hide your religion away. This is the way!