this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Pope Francis condemned the "very strong, organised, reactionary attitude" in the US church and said Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.

Pope Francis has blasted the “backwardness” of some conservatives in the US Catholic Church, saying they have replaced faith with ideology and that a correct understanding of Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.

Francis’ comments were an acknowledgment of the divisions in the US Catholic Church, which has been split between progressives and conservatives who long found support in the doctrinaire papacies of St John Paul II and Benedict XVI, particularly on issues of abortion and same-sex marriage.

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[–] Redditiscancer789@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (7 children)

I never understood this argument. If God is all powerful how come he leaves his messages to interpretation. Shouldn't we all just be born knowing the exact wording and understanding?

[–] atempuser23@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Ever have a dog? You really love the dog and the dog is smart for a dog, but no matter how hard you train them they won't really understand you. You can get them to follow a few rules , but after a certain point you can't really train them much more.

People can't even handle the few very basic messages that were already laid out.

[–] oce@jlai.lu 4 points 1 year ago

It's a way to select the good ones for his next experiment.

[–] deadbeef79000@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago

Ssssh. It's just a way to control Pharaoh's slaves.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah it seems ridiculous now that I've deconverted and can finally look at this critically from the outside. It would be like raising a kid by leaving them a letter. If the god existed surely they would have the bright idea to drop some updated material every few decades and maybe make the occasional clarifying announcement to humanity.

Having a collection of religious texts, physically recorded by human hands, that provide information about the religion is a feature consistent with any religion that has a human-fabricated deity. Coincidentally, it is also a feature of every major religion. 🤔

[–] beebarfbadger@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If the god existed surely they would have the bright idea to drop some updated material every few decades and maybe make the occasional clarifying announcement to humanity.

Oh, but God does and coincidentally God's will always coincides with what the person proclaiming to relay God's will wants to be true .

[–] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If the god existed surely they would have the bright idea to drop some updated material every few decades

this was part of what Jesus was supposed to do, actually.

[–] deadbeef79000@lemmy.nz 0 points 1 year ago

... and Mohammed... and Joseph Smith...

Depending on which items of Abrahamic scripture you consider canon.

[–] Blackrook7@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Atheist here, putting in a Christian hat. If you were omnipotent and creating a game, would you make it easy or hard?

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If God is all powerful how come he leaves his messages to interpretation.

So that humanity can learn:

Shouldn’t we all just be born knowing the exact wording and understanding?

Then we'd be mindless puppets without free will. The guy, however, doesn't want to be admired by automatons but people who could decide otherwise.

It's the ole "if you slip your crush a love potion, is it actually love" problem and, indeed, no, it's rape.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.one 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What if you tell your crush they need to love you or you will throw them in a lake of fire to suffer for eternity while you enjoy sniffing the smoke?

That seems abusive. And maybe somewhat unhinged.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I really don't want to play Christian apologetics here, yes the whole thing is unhinged, and no I'm not even a Christian, this is all just comparative mysticism for me and I like The Sandman much better.

But specifically as to the hell thing the doctrine of denominations differ, e.g. Lutherans think that faith is not required before you have proof, that is, until you're standing at the crossroads of afterlife, heaven on one side and hell on the other. Capability to tell the both apart is something you probably should have taken some time to learn on earth, though.

It is possible to make Christianity make sense if, and only if, you interpret things just right. And it will put you at loggerheads with practically all Christians. Been there, done that, either they fall silent or they unleash the full force of their neuroses to ignore you, little in between.

And, of course, originally hell didn't even exist it was a question of oblivion vs. spend the afterlife in the radiance of god's presence. Not sure exactly where in the transformation from Judaism to Christianity that one happened but at the very least the vast majority of stuff about hell is bible fan-fiction.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because that would be boring.

If we had all the answers, we'd be all knowing. If we were all knowing we wouldn't be distinct beings, we'd just be part of some hive mind that is God. Like an appendage of God.

Free will requires each of us to be beings that have knowledge and the capability to make decisions (even bad ones) outside God's control.

The old paradox, if God was so powerful could he make a Rock so big even he couldn't move it? Basically what free will is. Something created by God that can't be controlled by God. If it we were controlled by God it would destroy free will, which is something a Creator can't do.

[–] flerp@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

He could be very clear about the law and his expectations (or even the fact that he exists) and we would still have free will to choose to follow the law or not.

Did the people in the bible who actually saw him not have free will? Did Adam and Eve not have free will? Do the people in heaven not have free will?

It's a commonly touted excuse, but it falls apart under a modicum of scrutiny.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I see your belief system is focused on nitpicking details to avoid the point. Commonly touted among people in the atheist belief system LOL.

Next you'll say I don't actually believe in God unless I think the Bible is 100% literal, because that's the argument you want to be having. But that's a boring discussion, so good day to you sir.

[–] Hossenfeffer@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago

the atheist belief system

Hilarious.

[–] flerp@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

What nitpicking details are you talking about? You mentioned that if we knew the truth about god and his law we would be a hive mind and not have free will. I was responding to that point, not avoiding it at all. And the rest of your comment is a straw man arguing against some atheist you have in your mind and never once addressed the points I made.