this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2021

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Privacy

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Signal's servers are no longer open source for anti-spam reasons. (signal.org)

submitted 3 years ago by ramberry@lemmy.ml to c/privacy@lemmy.ml

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We build Signal in the open, with publicly available source code for our applications and servers. To keep Signal a free global communication service without spam, we must depart from our totally-open posture and develop one piece of the server in private: a system for detecting and disrupting spam campaigns. Unlike encryption protocols, which are designed to be provably secure even if everyone knows how they work, spam detection is an ongoing chore for which there is no concrete resolution and for which transparency is a major disadvantage.

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[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I suggest locking the thread, red pilled people spreading their based opinion here which is not helpful at all.

Facts are

Signal went closed source with the Security through obscurity argument, which is reason enough to ditch this MF.
You need phone number too, sure there are workaround but this is not what most people want.
Signal Team is intransparent and has history of not answering important questions.
Closed source is enough reason to not suggest it.
The topic is already multiple times covered, the last time was this one.
People already tried to attack me here in this thread with BS which is not even related to Signal or anything at all, not going to call names here, but check it bellow.

Personal comment If someone gives me 50 Mio. in funding I wont let people down like this. What Signal team does here is more than pathetic, they spit in everyones face taking the money and they expect us to swollow the pill.

Give me the money I do better and I hang myself if I let someone down like Signal team did - you can quote me on this. No I am not suicidal it just expresses how most people think about the story and how they betrayed their own community.

[+] TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] PandaCoderPL@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Please quote whoever attacked you personally, and I am going to take action against it. Harassment is not welcome on Lemmy. We all want a civil platform here.

I'm pretty sure this user is talking about me after I disagreed with him multiple times in this discussion. Feel free to review the discussion and let me know if any of my statements is harassing this user in any way.

[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It is off-topic and smear campaign against me, my work that is all. How is that relevant to topic. It s not.

[+] TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] PandaCoderPL@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

please do not fight it out here publicly.

@CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml publicly accused me of harassing him so I felt it will be good to defend myself also publicly.

If you want to pick a fight, go do it in DMs or a realtime chat platform like Matrix or XMPP.

Of course that would be a better option but I didn't want to look like I'm avoiding his baseless accusations. If someone is calling me out publicly, they can be sure I will answer publicly as well.

All I see is a petty argument between you two, and getting riled up over what is typical privacy community drama. Do not make yourself another GrapheneOS vs CopperheadOS, it makes both look like fools.

I was only replying to that user and for me, the argument related to his past activity is over. Hopefully he will understand that and will also stop replying to me about that issue.

I appreciate that your reaction but I hope you will try to understand my point of view as well. Thank you in advance.

[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

First useful comment here. Thanks.

I suggest locking this thread, cleaning it. My Guild is here. People with objective and constructive criticism are welcome.

I already predict that this will happen and requested multiple times to lock this because this is all off-topic and a vendetta against my in person, nothing more. The user simply wanted to smuggle his argument inside wrapped up Signal posts to make me look like a fool which is motivation, I speculate that this is someone from the arkenfox team in an alt account or someone who is a fanboy of them, which would explain the refusal of valid arguments.

[–] PandaCoderPL@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Disagreeing with your statements is not smear campaign against you.

[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Claiming something without been involved, checking so-called made up facts and abusing it on a high traffic website is a smear campaign, as per definition.

It makes it so or so not better because it is still off-topic. It is also not your argument at all, it is something you found on the internet or someone send you and an attempt to discredet me, nothing more.

[–] PandaCoderPL@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Claiming something without been involved, checking so-called made up facts and abusing it on a high traffic website is a smear campaign, as per definition.

The problem is that from what I know those facts are not made up, I'm not abusing this and Lemmy is not really high traffic website. If my goal would be to spread this information about you, then I would definitely use any other website but I'm only using those facts as part of our conversation so that's completely different situation.

It makes it so or so not better because it is still off-topic. It is also not your argument at all, it is something you found on the internet or someone send you and an attempt to discredet me, nothing more.

If it's offtopic then just end this part of our discussion at this point. In future, if you don't want people to remind you of your past then simply change your username or just don't do anything bad.

[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

The problem is that I provided evidence that the so-called facts are made up. You refuse. I said GitHub website, not Lemmy for the high-traffic abuse argument, which is true. Besides the GitHub staff closed the thread and the members got warned, even this fact is presented by my link which you still ignore to accept. Please read the GitHub ToS regarding abusing issue tickets to harass someone, it is harassment because they never contacted me in the first place, my email and my Twitter etc. is all known and welcome for constructive criticism.
The problem is that you answer here in order to attempt to discreet me, please provide evidence that not one of the arkenfox members are behind this account. Those people showed multiple times that they chase me - as a person - across multiple platforms because they are obsessed with me and that I might do a better job.
It is off-topic the moment you try to discredit me with an internet link which has nothing to do with facts, Signal or that Signal now closes parts of their code and servers.
I never did anything bad, I stand to my failures, and I always did. Everyone makes mistakes and professionalism is to stand to them and apologize, whenever I did mistake I did mention it and I did apologize.

You accuse someone which you never tried to contact before, come with a link which had to be closed b an GitHub staff due to misinformation and call this fact. According to you, earth must be flat because it is also written somewhere on the internet.

I urge you to stop spreading misinformation regarding my person because you want to discredit me to make your stuff look better. You failed here miserably. Please stay on the topic, Lemmy is FOSS community. Signal is not anymore FOSS which was the reason it got attention in the first place.

We have sufficient alternatives, they are mentioned here by fine people of Lemmy.

[–] PandaCoderPL@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

The problem is that I provided evidence that the so-called facts are made up.

No, you didn't.

Besides the GitHub staff closed the thread and the members got warned, even this fact is presented by my link which you still ignore to accept.

The issue is still open and last comment was written two weeks ago so either you live in some different reality or your so-called evidence is made up.

The only member who got warned and then permanently banned in that situation was you. Your GitHub account is still banned since 2018. Now try to convince me and others that this happened because GitHub stuff was wrong and they don't know their own ToS.

Please read the GitHub ToS regarding abusing issue tickets to harass someone, it is harassment because they never contacted me in the first place, my email and my Twitter etc. is all known and welcome for constructive criticism.

Please quote the part of GitHub those which states that the users have to contact you in any way before exposing you and showing evidence against you.

The problem is that you answer here in order to attempt to discreet me, please provide evidence that not one of the arkenfox members are behind this account. Those people showed multiple times that they chase me - as a person - across multiple platforms because they are obsessed with me and that I might do a better job.

Can you show me any proof that anyone related to arkenfox is chasing you over multiple platforms and that I'm doing the same?

It is off-topic the moment you try to discredit me with an internet link which has nothing to do with facts, Signal or that Signal now closes parts of their code and servers.

You were the one spreading misinformation, not facts, so I reminded people about who you are so they can better understand why are you behaving that way and that they shouldn't worry about you attacking them if they disagree with you.

I stand to my failures

By writing really long post, spreading misinformations and users who exposed you and claiming that amount of knowledge is measured by number of your repositories.

I never did anything bad

You should better educate yourself if you think that plagiarizing other's work is nothing bad.

Everyone makes mistakes and professionalism is to stand to them and apologize

And that's what you should do few years ago instead of writing long and meaningless post.

You accuse someone which you never tried to contact before

You have no way to know that.

come with a link which had to be closed b an GitHub staff due to misinformation and call this fact.

The GitHub issue is still open and even active. The only user who got punished in this situation was you.

According to you, earth must be flat because it is also written somewhere on the internet.

No, because it was proven that earth is not flat. You still didn't prove that you didn't plagiarize other's work.

I urge you to stop spreading misinformation regarding my person because you want to discredit me to make your stuff look better. You failed here miserably.

You are the one trying to accuse me of harassment only because I gave you the link to facts about yourself.

Please stay on the topic, Lemmy is FOSS community. Signal is not anymore FOSS which was the reason it got attention in the first place.

It doesn't matter. If you are using Lemmy, it doesn't mean you can't use messenger that was FOSS for most of the times.

We have sufficient alternatives, they are mentioned here by fine people of Lemmy. This is why Signal is for FOSS enthusiasts dead, and this statement is not wrong.

You are wrong again. Signal is dead but only for you, just one tiny person that is trying to prove that he did nothing bad.

[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I already made my point.

Signal is dead - at least for the Lemmy community, among other communities like degoogle. There is nothing to argue about it, closed source ... end of story. There is nothing to fight or to discuss over it.
You can use XMPP with encryption already, and hold on to it. Nothing wrong with it, I also expressed that already, or you move on and use alternative stuff.
We had such discussions here on Lemmy now, the first comment or what already showed a link to the same discussion.

I can take criticism, it was just to make my point how useless the discussion here has become.

I request again here in public to lock the topic because the bias on this is very strong and people do not let it go even if you prove them wrong.

[–] southerntofu@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not everyone is wanting 100% anonymity when using Signal.

Strongly disagree. As someone who has lots of friends and comrades using Signal on a daily basis, the fact that you have to tie it to a phone is (rightfully) perceived by anarchists as a threat against us.

[–] PandaCoderPL@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I suggest locking the thread, red pilled people spreading their based opinion here which is not helpful at all.

You are basically out of arguments, you know that you were wrong so now you are suggesting locking the thread to avoid further discussion. You posted this shortly after replying to me so I wouldn't have chance to reply back. Having last message in the discussion doesn't mean you are right though.

Signal went closed source with the Security through obscurity argument, which is reason enough to ditch this MF.

Explain this: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server Signal is mostly open source, only mechanisms related to blocking spam are closed source.

You need phone number too, sure there are workaround but this is not what most people want.

It's not a big deal for some people because everyone has different threat model. Some people are using Signal with their family and friends who already have their phone number anyway.

Signal Team is intransparent and has history of not answering important questions.

Could you link to at least one source that proves it?

Closed source is enough reason to not suggest it.

You are using the same argument twice to make your message longer so it looks smarter? Above you can see link to source code of Signal server.

People already tried to attack me here in this thread with BS which is not even related to Signal or anything at all

You were the one who was constantly saying that code that is running on the server can be verified if you have access to the server. Of course it can, but how is it related to Signal?

not going to call names here, but check it bellow.

You don't even have to. Also this kind of behavior is really childish: "I could do that but I will not do it". If you are not going to do it then why did you even mention that.

Personal comment If someone gives me 50 Mio. in funding I wont let people down like this.

Did you give them the money? Signal got funding so they can do whatever they want with it. People have different needs and expectations so it's not really possible to create perfect messenger that would make everyone happy.

What Signal team does here is more than pathetic, they spit in everyones face taking the money and they expect us to swollow the pill.

I disagree with that statement. Signal is constantly being updated, new features are being added, bugs are getting fixed, you are the only one who is complaining that Signal team got the money but they are not doing what you want them to do with it. Luckily for you, Signal is open source so you can fork it and make your own messenger that will look just like you want it.

Give me the money I do better

Can you do it without plagiarizing other's work though?

[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You are basically out of arguments, you know that you were wrong so now you are suggesting locking the thread to avoid further discussion. You posted this shortly after replying to me so I wouldn’t have chance to reply back. Having last message in the discussion doesn’t mean you are right though.

I am not out of arguments, I explained multiple times that your audit argument does not hold because in reality no one audits server code. You refuse to accept it and continue your nonsense.

Explain this: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server Signal is mostly open source, only mechanisms related to blocking spam are closed source.

The app as well as the server code can be closed sourced afterwards, which happened now partially. If more and more crypto stuff gets added then what will happen next, they close that too.

It’s not a big deal for some people because everyone has different threat model. Some people are using Signal with their family and friends who already have their phone number anyway.

Some people also use XMPP with their family, according to your previous logic, why abandon XMPP.

Could you link to at least one source that proves it?

Here.

You are using the same argument twice to make your message longer so it looks smarter? Above you can see link to source code of Signal server.

Because you mentioned it 3 times now, you quote everything to make a mess now to make it look like that what you say is true, which is not. Please provide evidence that normal people audit source code of the app or the server code, there is none.

You were the one who was constantly saying that code that is running on the server can be verified if you have access to the server. Of course it can, but how is it related to Signal?

It can if you run your own, you talk about decentralization, so there you have it.

You don’t even have to. Also this kind of behavior is really childish: “I could do that but I will not do it”. If you are not going to do it then why did you even mention that.

You act childish, you come with arguments written by clowns. How is that related to Signal, harassment is not wanted here on Lemmy.

Did you give them the money? Signal got funding so they can do whatever they want with it. People have different needs and expectations so it’s not really possible to create perfect messenger that would make everyone happy.

If the govt. funds project, then everyone indirectly gave the money. A messenger claims to be private and then wants your phone number, well that alone is a no go. You can simply use a QR-Code to add new contacts.

I disagree with that statement. Signal is constantly being updated, new features are being added, bugs are getting fixed, you are the only one who is complaining that Signal team got the money but they are not doing what you want them to do with it. Luckily for you, Signal is open source so you can fork it and make your own messenger that will look just like you want it.

The server code was not updated for over one year, this is not constantly, in the meantime features did break. Luckily your argument about open source does not hold because can you audit it, no. So there you have it. And how does open source help if something is outdated or if the server code is changed, it does not help at all.

Can you do it without plagiarizing other’s work though?

I can and I debunked the wrong accusation here, which you refuse to read in full, as you admitted here.

How is that relevant to OP, you try to discredit me or my work based on some so called-findings from people who copy everything out of Bugzilla and other sources. What you do here is harassment and proves my point exactly. No arguments, coming with years old stuff from GitHub that violates GitHub Tos by abusing issue tickets for harassment, congrats.

[–] PandaCoderPL@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I am not out of arguments, I explained multiple times that your audit argument does not hold because in reality no one audits server code. You refuse to accept it and continue your nonsense.

Where did I even mention that auditing code of the server would change anything? I was only saying that you can't verify what is running on the server so it doesn't really matter if Signal makes that code open source or not.

The app as well as the server code can be closed sourced afterwards, which happened now partially. If more and more crypto stuff gets added then what will happen next, they close that too.

Now I can agree because you added that code of the server is partially closed.

Some people also use XMPP with their family, according to your previous logic, why abandon XMPP.

Who said anything about abandoning XMPP? I already said that people are free to use whatever they want because everyone has different threat model. Of course there are projects that I will recommend or not but nobody is forced to listen to my opinions.

https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html

Thank you for the link, I will definitely check it out later.

Because you mentioned it 3 times now

Ans you still refuse to understand it.

you quote everything to make a mess now to make it look like that what you say is true, which is not.

I already said that I'm using quotes to make my reply more readable and less confusing, especially in case of longer statements. Quotes doesn't make anything look more true, it's just personal preference and my style of replying to others.

Please provide evidence that normal people audit source code of the app or the server code, there is none.

How do you know there is none? Do you know what every single person on the planet is doing right now? I highly doubt it.

It can if you run your own, you talk about decentralization, so there you have it.

Decentralization is not related to Signal either because AFAIK all servers are owned by one company.

You act childish, you come with arguments written by clowns. How is that related to Signal, harassment is not wanted here on Lemmy.

Let the moderators decide if this is harassment.

A messenger claims to be private and then wants your phone number, well that alone is a no go.

Privacy is not 0 or 1. Like I said before, people have different threat models so for some people will not care about using their own phone number for Signal, when others will not use Signal or even any mobile device at all.

The server code was not updated for over one year, this is not constantly

I said that Signal was constantly being updated, not the code of the server.

I can and I debunked the wrong accusation here, which you refuse to read in full, as you admitted here.

I already explained why I refused to read your explanation in full:

I did read part of your post and to be honest I don’t think there is even reason to read the rest. Basically you are saying that no contact informations indicate that someone likes to harass people and less repositories on Git means that someone has no knowledge. Some people just don’t want to be contacted outside that one platform where they are talking to you and number of repisitories doesn’t mean that your statements are taken more seriously.

What you do here is harassment and proves my point exactly.

Saying that you were plagiarizing work is not harassment but warning for other users who will be interacting with you in any way in future.

[–] CHEFKOCH@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Where did I even mention that auditing code of the server would change anything? I was only saying that you can’t verify what is running on the server so it doesn’t really matter if Signal makes that code open source or not.

No one audits code, this is the point, I have even proven that with the OpenSSL Heartbleed argumentation. Open source does not help at all here, you can also reverse closed source stuff. This is what you do not understand. You can change stuff on the server and it will break stuff for your clients, a short test if you add feature x into the app, then check if the current server accepts it or not. Yes, this is a small test everyone can do.

Now I can agree because you added that code of the server is partially closed.

And how long until they close everything. The betrayed their community. I said, give me the money, I do better, hiring people or do it yourself with 50 Mio is easily archived.

Who said anything about abandoning XMPP? I already said that people are free to use whatever they want because everyone has different threat model. Of course there are projects that I will recommend or not but nobody is forced to listen to my opinions.

You said according to my logic. The normal user does not even know what threat model is.

Thank you for the link, I will definitely check it out later.

Yes, read it and really read everything and not only the headers like you did with my link.

I already said that I’m using quotes to make my reply more readable and less confusing, especially in case of longer statements. Quotes doesn’t make anything look more true, it’s just personal preference and my style of replying to others.

This is more readable, oh my god. Really. Your logic and weak arguments are beyond cringe.

Decentralization is not related to Signal either because AFAIK all servers are owned by one company.

Nope, Signal uses AWS, Google and Azure. There are fallback servers etc.

Let the moderators decide if this is harassment.

Yup, this thread gets closed anyway and maybe ends up that we both get banned because spam.

Privacy is not 0 or 1. Like I said before, people have different threat models so for some people will not care about using their own phone number for Signal, when others will not use Signal or even any mobile device at all.

No one said nor implied it. You mention thread model now 3 times, well I assume you do not even know what it is. Your aggressive - I wanna be right here - argument does not hold. You defend a system which turned on their users and make arguments up to make it look less shocking than it is, people trusted Signal but only if it is FOSS. That changed, and there is no arguing here.

I already explained why I refused to read your explanation in full

This is from basically the headers and not the full thing. Again you do not read links in full, you have no credibility nor reputation at all. Why shall someone believes a random account created 2 months ago which aggressively defends Signal because he wants to be right, failing the point that this OP is about that parts are closed source now.

No, I provided sufficient evidence that the arkenfox people are liar and hypocrites. This is a fact.

Saying that you were plagiarizing work is not harassment but warning for other users who will be interacting with you in any way in future.

There is no proof for this claim, I even explained it in detail. Again, using other statements from the internet makes you look like am amateur. Or do you believe earth is flat because it is written down.

I request again this topic gets locked, people here defend it without any arguments or links at all. The thread is already abused as smear campaign which is entirely off-topic. I have my own guild here on lemmy, if there is something to say, do that there and I will address all concerns.