Cause and effect have nothing to do with "fault" - the Wests support for Euromaidan lead to the annexation of Crimea which lead to the conflict in the Donbas which lead to the invasion. Things happen for reasons, Russia didn't just randomly go crazy.

Stop moralizing and start looking at events materially.

[–] adroidBalloon@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Cause and effect have nothing to do with “fault”

dude, you JUST said THIS in a previous comment, lmao:

Pointing out the role of the West in provoking Russia...

so which is it?

Stop moralizing and start looking at events materially.

oh, so when you can’t answer to your own hypocrisy, you move the goalposts? you’re doing exactly what I said above:

rabidly defending Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, for example, making some pretty ridiculous claims and praising Putin with a litany of logical fallacies

confused? looks like I was precisely correct.

[+] queermunist@lemmy.ml -6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Okay, the fact that Russia was provoked doesn't mean they aren't also at fault and it doesn't mean the invasion was justified. All I'm saying is the West shares responsibility for using Ukraine as a proxy for its conflict with Russia. That's why fault is irrelevant - both sides share responsibility and the war will only end if both sides negotiate.

You refuse to accept that the West played any role at all! As far as you're concerned, Russians are orcs and we should fight this war to the last Ukrainian.

[–] adroidBalloon@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Okay, the fact that Russia was provoked doesn’t mean they aren’t also at fault and it doesn’t mean the invasion was justified. All I’m saying is the West shares responsibility for using Ukraine as a proxy for its conflict with Russia.

bullshit. first of all, you can’t keep throwing around “The West” as a blame-all for everything you don’t like when specific actors do specific things and expect to have a rational discussion bout geopolitics— also, cite some evidence for these claims, please. second, you also can’t “both-sides” this and expect me to take this seriously— whomever may have had a role in Crimean unrest in 2014 sure as hell isn’t tantamount to an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, nor do I concede that there’s shared blame in that act. it’s on a whole other level of magnitude, and Putin clearly used it as a flimsy pretext for an action he’d been planning since he took power a years before.

That’s why fault is irrelevant - both sides share responsibility and the war will only end if both sides negotiate.

and third: your attempts to deflect blame away from Russia/Putin for the illegal and brutal invasion of Ukraine is transparent, and, despite your repeated claims that it’s not justified, you obviously think it is or your wouldn’t be so vociferously defending it and Russia for doing so.

You refuse to accept that the West played any role at all!

I never said that, but by making such false claims, you make yourself and you false position appear sympathetic to the reader. it’s an old propaganda tactic.

As far as you’re concerned, Russians are orcs and we should fight this war to the last Ukrainian.

more playing the victim by making up things I never said. for someone who keeps saying that Russia wasn’t justified, you keep taking their side and painting them as victims despite their illegal invasion, history of brutality and long list of war crimes.

so, which is it?

[+] queermunist@lemmy.ml -6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

and, despite your repeated claims that it’s not justified, you obviously think it is

Since you've already decided my position for me I see no reason to continue engaging with you. You've already won the argument we're having inside your head and nothing I say matters at this point because no matter what I say, obviously what I mean is something else.

[–] adroidBalloon@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

no matter what I say, obviously what I mean is something else.

I think I did a pretty good job of using your own words to prove that, yes

[+] queermunist@lemmy.ml -9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

No, you just shoved words in my mouth and then argued with what you pretended I was saying.

I keep saying that Russia's invasion is an overly aggressive and unjustified response to Western provocations, but you pretend like this means I support Russia's war. I just want peace, whereas you only want Russia to lose. You only want the peace of the graveyard and you are willing to fight to the last Ukrainian to make that happen.

[–] adroidBalloon@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No, you just shoved words in my mouth and then argued with what you pretended I was saying.

that’s what you did. I used quotes…

I keep saying that Russia’s invasion is an overly aggressive and unjustified response to Western provocations

which is bullshit. Russia, alone, is responsible for its actions. It, alone, decided to illegally invade Ukraine, annex land, and commit war crimes. This mythical “The West” you keep mentioning and blaming (yet can’t specifically name or even give specific detains for deeds done) is just a flimsy pretext for your repeated defense and deflections for the clear fault that lies on Russia for it’s illegal and monstrous acts. Out of one side of your mouth you claim Russia isn’t justified, yet, out of the other come your justifications.

Your comments ar duplicitous and hypocritical, and, when challenged, you play victim, inventing things I’ve never said and then parroting the same doublespeak over and over, regardless of how many holes I poke in it as if you have amnesia.repeating this flawed argument won’t magically make it work.

circular logic is circular— and yet another logical fallacy. remember how I predicted this in that first comment?