AngelJamie

joined 1 year ago
[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

And that's the problem. It's not universal, and at the end of the day, that's why it differs for me. Something that someone can tie to "AFAB socialization" could easily apply to AMAB people in a lot of instances, for example. My main issue with the "AFAB/AMAB" shit is that it's used to create a new binary, and enables people to misgender non-binary people because they see non-binary as "cis+" or something like that. As a non-binary person who explicitly wants nothing to do with the notion that I could be cis, this is what gets me the most. I assume bad faith in a lot of people, so anyone who asks me "AMAB or AFAB? I just want to know your socialization!", yeah I don't trust them either.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There is no universal "AFAB experience", especially in relation to being trans. A trans man and a cis woman are both AFAB, but their experiences in relation to that fact are wildly different. I also don't conflate assigned sex at birth with experience (to a large degree) and personality (to no degree at all). I think, depending on how you transition, this is less so about identifying with being "AFAB" and more so about identifying with transmasculine (if you identify with that term), but I'm not one to speak on your experience and how that manifests for you, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And here's the problem. I'm dismissing their point yes, but I do the same thing as you. I participate in a lot of spaces with transfeminine people myself, including binary trans women and transfeminine non-binary people like me. This is from a pragmatic perspective, though. If I want to learn more about feminizing effects of estrogen, then talking to AFAB trans people won't be very helpful in comparison to talking to AMAB trans people about it.

This aspect of relating to trans people who share your assigned sex has nothing to even do with my initial response to their original comment. It was about the problematic description of "socialization". I don't argue that assigned sex at birth is irrelevant to socialization myself. I argue that it's abused with transphobic intentions. As a matter of fact, the entirety of my post was to emphasize that people pry about assigned sex all the time in irrelevant matters. Funnily enough, in my original post, I didn't even mention socialization. There is a major difference between saying "I want to interact with fellow AMAB trans people to relate my experience transitioning better" and doing things like I've mentioned in the post like "I want to ask enbies their assigned sex and intrude on their personal boundaries because I'm enbyphobic and don't accept them for who they are.", but people still get upset over this.

It's very apparent that, even non-binary people themselves, engage in the "misgendering but woke" shit a lot. There are non-binary people who will separate non-binary people by assigned sex at birth, and this isn't jack shit to do with socialization either. They do it because of internalized enbyphobia that usually comes with a side of sexism as well.

If you want to make your assigned sex at birth a part of who you are, I won't stop you, but to me, I'm not comfortable doing it. Being comfortable with your assigned sex is literally just what being cis is, and I'm not even remotely cis.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

That's another thing, though. Someone could have been assigned male at birth and be a non-binary woman too. You don't need to make it a point to mention your assigned sex at birth to emphasize how you are a non-binary woman, as the label is applicable to non-binary people regardless of assigned sex at birth. Also, how society treats you, once again, is not explicitly because you were assigned female at birth. It's because you present in a way that indicates to society that you are a woman in their eyes. Like, I understand what you're coming from, but, in my view, it's incredibly problematic to conflate the factor of you being "AFAB" with things that are not particularly relevant to it.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

It is semantic, yes. I disagree on "AMAB" and "socialized male" being interchangeable, and like I said, nothing is really universal in that context either. Different AMAB individuals get socialized differently, even in the context of gender, especially in relation to their circumstances in other ways.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

What you're doing is the "socialization" argument here. Socialization isn't universal on the basis of assigned sex at birth. Also, I don't "disregard" it wholly. I just take it at face value. Assigned sex at birth is literally just that: assigned sex at birth, and I've even emphasized things like transition journey being relative to my assigned sex at birth with content like the very first bullet point in the post. It truly is just an event.

"Socialized male" ≠ AMAB

"Having a penis" ≠ AMAB

"Presenting masculine" ≠ AMAB

I could go on and on.

 

As a non-binary person, I often get asked, upon stating my gender identity, this question: "Are you AMAB or AFAB?", and quite frankly, I hate it, and I think it reeks of bad intentions. Now, I don't think anyone who asks this is explicitly enbyphobic. There's a good chance that they just simply might not understand, but to me, at the end of the day, it reeks of the toxic mentality that assigned sex at birth is a "trait" or a "state of being". I don't see it that way. As someone who is 23 years old, my assigned sex at birth is an event that happened 23 years ago and has no bearing on any inherent part of who I am in the present moment.

This is also why I always speak in past tense for these matters. For example, I never say things like "I'm AMAB", and I feel repulsed in those insane contexts where AMAB and AFAB are used as nouns (like someone saying "I have a question for all the AFABs here" just disgusts me). I always explicitly say, in my context, "I WAS assigned male at birth", and I leave it at that. If you're non-binary yourself and prefer to handle these matters differently, that's okay, as long as you're not projecting that I should go along with your view of this subject. I just like to emphasize that, for me, it's really contingent on context when it comes to how willing I am to state my assigned sex at birth.

The caveat is that, in most of these instances, people are not directly asking me what sex I was assigned at birth. Let me give you a few examples:

  • I take hormones, right? If someone wants to ask me about my experiences for whatever good faith reason like relating to it or just wanting more information in order to be supportive of my transition journey, then that's totally fine. With this in mind, people won't ask me things like "Are you AMAB or AFAB?", but instead, will ask me things like "Are you taking estrogen, or are you taking testosterone?" which I find significantly more acceptable.
  • If you're my doctor, and you need to know something that pertains to my reproductive system, reproductive capacity, general anatomy/physiology, or any other thing that makes knowing my assigned sex at birth crucial to know, then I don't mind the doctor asking obviously. Like I said, though, often times, a doctor won't ask me things like "Are you AMAB or AFAB?", obviously. They will ask me things like "Do you have a prostate? Can you get pregnant? Can you impregnate others?" and all that stuff that makes the contextual aspect of it all the more sensible.
  • For people interested in me in a sexual context who find it hard to assume my assigned sex at birth because of my androgynous gender presentation, asking me "Do you have a penis or a vagina?" makes sense, especially if I indicated reciprocating sexual interest here. In these contexts, knowing my genital configuration would be important to know how to proceed with me in a sexual manner. However, let me clarify that not all non-binary people who were assigned male at birth have penises and not all non-binary people who were assigned female at birth have vaginas.
  • The last point I'd state is to make sense of some more niche contexts here. For example, I talk about how short I am all the time, right? I stand at a height of 5'5", which by the standard of an adult cisgender woman, is generally not considered short. If I claim I am short at my height of 5'5", sometimes I like to clarify that, even though I'm non-binary, I was assigned male at birth to make it make sense when I'm on a forum or community for vertically challenged individuals like myself.

At the end of the day, I just like to sniff out context. I hate to be pedantic, but whenever someone asks me things like "AMAB or AFAB?" and leads it on with the fact that they're "just curious", I question the "why" of their curiosity. As I see it, unless the context indicates it being relevant, it shouldn't be taken as an important matter. It seems like a fishy tactic incorporated by those with a bioessentialist mindset to tie my assigned sex as a trait and pick out what my "true gender" is rather than accepting me as non-binary at face value. Like I said to start, many people who ask this are not doing so in bad faith. Often times, they're just misinformed, so I try to explain to them some of the more problematic aspects of said questions being asked in unnecessary, irrelevant contexts.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

I hope your name is Jennifer.

If not, hopefully a Jennifer gave you the pass.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

Brandon made me think of:

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Thank you for understanding.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

I misread the word "tyranny" there 😳

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It really strikes me as odd that some people think "transition wasn't right for me, so therefore, it's right for nobody!" is a valid argument.

I'd go as far to say that I find it so hard to believe that this argument is upheld in good faith to a point where I think most people who assert it know it makes no sense but feel the need to grasp at any straws they can to be transphobic.

It's almost as if something called a "case-by-case basis" exists, but these people refuse to acknowledge it.

I even brought up the amount of satisfied post-transition trans people with my grandfather who has an obsession with sending me articles by transphobic detransitioners (so he can use the whole "take it from someone who actually did it: transition is wrong!" argument), to which he responds:

Any trans person who says their satisfied with their lives post-transition is "lying" to not get targeted by the "liberal media".

What gets me the most about people like my grandparents is that he simultaneously believes that transphobes like him are a silent majority to a point where he argues that everyone "secretly" agrees with his views on trans people, but he also wants to showcase a victim complex saying that people with his views are massively shunned by society when he expresses said views.

Make it make sense.

[–] AngelJamie@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

we don't talk much anymore...

"much"

Damn! You're better than I am. I'd tell someone like that who is my "friend" to get as far away from me as possible.

 

They deserve it. It seems like so many transphobes only want to recognize the existence of detransitioners to use them as a transphobic tool to support their close-minded worldview.

It honestly must be very scary for pro-trans detransitioners to speak on their experiences. They'll get right-wing asshats pulling a "told you so" on them and also those same righties attempting to use them to push an agenda.

Not only that, but we need to support them. Going through detransition, even not considering the social issues that one might have in doing that, is a really tough thing, and I think we should acknowledge it.

 

A lot of transphobic people say things like "Trans people shouldn't undergo surgeries and hormones to fix what they're going through!" and what not, but I've come to a realization. They're not saying this out of a genuine desire to help trans people, and I've used this "four point method" with every transphobe who says this to catch them using "caring about the well-being of people" as a bad faith op to disguise their pushes for just hating trans people.

  1. On what basis can you assert that gender dysphoria SHOULD NOT be treated by medical transition?

  2. By extension, do you know HOW to execute said treatment from a medical professional perspective?

  3. If no to number 2, circle back to number 1 and question your basis again.

  4. If yes to number 2, why are you harassing people online about your solutions instead of proposing it to medical communities (which would be infinitely more useful)?

Most transphobes I hit with this are not even able to get past the first question in any rhetorically coherent manner, if at all.

Of course, you act accordingly to how each transphobe answers, but at that point, it's easy because transphobia isn't rational. It's entirely based on emotions and fears.

I emphasize that you're supposed to use logic to come to a conclusion; not the other way around.

Transphobes just so happen to have already preemptively made a conclusion on trans people on the basis of emotions, but they realize that said conclusion won't hold up in a genuine case of rhetoric (because of how emotionally charged it is), so they embarrassingly try to attach a logical explanation for their bigotry after the fact of them concluding that being trans is bad, so watch them grasp at straws and argue from incredulity as you ask them these four questions.

😇

 

Geez, Lois, this is worse than that time they talked about us on Lemmy.

 
 
 

I'd say John Cena.

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