this post was submitted on 17 Jul 2023
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[–] ProcurementCat@feddit.de 71 points 1 year ago (6 children)

It doesnt matter what russia says or does in this regard. What is important is if Turkey sticks with it and provides protection for those ships or not.

[–] Hexadecimalkink@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] nicolairathjen@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

They did the last time this was an issue.

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[–] xuxebiko@kbin.social 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Why is Russia allowed to hold the world hostage? Who right do they have to starve people in other countries?

Every nation should kick Russians out, block their accounts, and sanction Russia.

[–] 133arc585@lemmy.ml 34 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Every nation should kick Russians out, block their accounts,

The Russian people are not making these decisions. Moreover, those who have left Russia are probably among the least likely to support Russia anyway.

What good comes from attacking the people of a country because you disagree with the leadership of the country?

[–] Hubi@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

People are sanctioned, people are unhappy, people protest their government that allowed it to happen. It's how you put pressure on the leadership of a country. How else would you solve this? You can't force Russia's hand in this, but you can make the situation for their people uncomfortable.

The alternative would be to say "Russia pls open the grain corridor again" and I think you can imagine their response.

[–] SolanumChillEse@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

There’s an abundance of contemporary evidence that shows this doesn’t work but it’s basically a foreign policy meme at this point. We tried this in Iraq and it just ended up killing a bunch of children and had no effect on Saddam’s hold on power.

[–] 133arc585@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

People are sanctioned, people are unhappy, people protest their government that allowed it to happen. It’s how you put pressure on the leadership of a country.

This doesn't follow. First of all, no change happens internally in the USA despite its own citizens complaining of material conditions; so to say that people being unhappy and protesting necessarily leads to change is false. Second, every other sentence people say about Russia is calling it "authoritarian", "dictatorship", etc: you can't simultaneously pretend its an authoritarian dictatorship and also that the people protesting have any say in its trajectory.

You can’t force Russia’s hand in this, but you can make the situation for their people uncomfortable.

Which is just wrong. You're making the everyday civilian uncomfortable. You aren't doing anything against those who actually make decisions. Instead you're punishing someone for their nationality, or where they were born or choose to live. It's punishment for something they didn't do and it's not constructive.

The alternative would be to say “Russia pls open the grain corridor again” and I think you can imagine their response.

Sure, I understand that you're saying Russia isn't going to just cooperate with requests. But it's also not going to be any more likely to cooperate because you've made the lives of their citizens, or people of Russian ethnicity living on foreign soil, any harder.

In the end this just punishes innocent people and does nothing to achieve the stated goal.

[–] BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tf 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sanctions have never once shown to lead to regime change. There’s entire books on the effects of sanctions, it can actually serve to strengthen support. The primary effect of sanctions, in every case though, is suffering for the regular people.

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[–] hitwright@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Something around 80 percent of russians actually support Russian imperialistic goals. You can't exactly pity them at this point. The protests were almost non existant in Russia.

Even if Putin drops down tommorow, it's likely that the whole Russia expansion desire remains. Shit even Navalny doesn't want to drop occupied Georgia.

[–] rolandtb303@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Those polls you got your source from are actually polls done by state-run polling facilities. of course poeple are going to say what the state wants to hear. here's a video on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uQCNjIHeqU

Btw, by saying that "80% of Russians support this war", you're spreading Russian state propaganda.

And of course protests in Russia died down, people get jailed for like 10-15 years in prison if they protest, so by fear of getting jailed, protestors stop. it isn't pretty but it's how the system works.

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[–] priapus@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Where do those stats come from? The stats I have found are significantly lower than that. It is also important to note that Russians who are against Putin and the war are far less likely to respond to a survey asking them about the war. In the survey I found, only 18% of citizens surveyed that were against Putin felt comfortable sharing this. It's not at all unlikely that many were too scared to say they were against the war.

It feels you are heavily oversimplifying this to support your beliefs. Even if it were true that most Russians supported the war, many of them are faced with constant propaganda, and it would not be entirely fair to contribute this to any moral failing.

[–] rolandtb303@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

He's parroting Russian state-led polls, which many people in Russia either just hang up because they just don't want to answer, or say what the state wants to hear. You can see how lopsided this becomes, with many people just saying yes because they don't want to be jailed for opposing the government. Even if some people do have the guts to say no, the votes saying yes will overshadow them massively.

And ironically by that guy spreading that poll and notion around, he's spreading Russian propaganda.

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[–] GuyFi@lemmy.sdf.org 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They aren't, but they just can do that. International politics is reallllly anarchistic because how the fuck do you arrest a country. Say if the U.S decided to just stop exporting anything at all- no more food and other stuff- all you could really do is just tell them pwese downt doo that, we need the foweign aiwd :3 This also assumes your the leader of a powerful country, which is a rather difficult position to get to.

In essence, get fucked international politics go brrrrr

[–] AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Except that isn't remotely true. For example we can set up trade embargos and cut Russia off from all trade under US sphere of influence so they'll only be able to trade with Brazil India Iran and China. We can also seize foreign owned assets owned by Russians in western nations. More aggressively we can send US/NATO war ships to Ukraine to provide an armed escort for Ukrainian ships carrying grain in order to ensure that shipments do not delay.

[–] GuyFi@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 year ago

Fair enough

[–] reksas@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 year ago

I wonder if trade embargo would actually even work anymore if enough big corporations just decide to not care about it like some have done with sanctions.

[–] Sethayy@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah and why don't we put em in re-education camps while were at it! That'll teach those dirty Russians /s

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[–] rusticus1773@lemmy.ml 28 points 1 year ago (14 children)

If we haven’t already, all foreign assets of Putin and all Russian leadership and oligarchs need to be seized immediately. Unless the pain is felt by those with power nothing will change.

There are also a number of Western companies still operating in Russia. That needs to change.

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[–] HappyMeatbag@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s a really good thing that I’m not President. I have NO patience for this shit. Stopping Ukraine’s food shipments is simply unacceptable. I would have sent the Navy into the Black Sea by now, and possibly started a war with Turkey if they tried to stop the ships.

The world does not need people like me in charge.

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[–] eleitl@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fun fact: only 2.5% of the grain went to the poor countries in need. And none of the non-Russian parts of the deal were honored, so not really a surprise it was dropped after Erdogan won the election.

[–] paral121@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It doesn't really matter where exactly they sell the grain. If there is less grain on the global market, the price will rise, which is very critical for poor countries

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

After the Grain Deal was struck, Western Europe became the top importer of Ukrainian grain, and a negligible amount of it ended up feeding the "Millions of hungry people around the world". The bulk of the African, Asian, and Global South countries, rely on Russian grain and not the Ukrainian. This does not affect global food security. Perhaps correct the title to not spread misinformation?

[–] space_frog@lemmyfly.org 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Russia could just stop waging wars of conquest and then they wouldn't have to worry about the world not wanting to buy their grain.

Seems simple enough to me.

[–] ToastyWaffles@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago

Its not that simple, that's why you're wrong. Russia isn't having any problems selling it's grain, and in fact they're setting up additional trade routes into China to solidify their food insecurity there.

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