Any western government or leader surprised that Ukraine is now talking about developing their own nuclear weapons program needs to understand that they wouldn’t even be considering that if we had just fucking held up our end of the deal.

With the Budapest Memorandum, they surrendered their (former Soviet) nukes in exchange for security guarantees. The guarantees ended up being worth less than the paper they were written on. Ergo, Ukraine, seeking security guarantees on its own terms, feels compelled to re-develop nuclear weapons technology, because that’s a guarantee nobody’s going to be able to forcibly take from you once you have it.

[–] HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world 28 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

We did hold up our end.

We brought it before the UNSC, Russia vetoed any proposal. That was our agreement, Russia did not hold up theirs.

This is why the VETO power needs to go.

[–] NoSpotOfGround@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, without the veto power I expect the nuclear-armed countries would just leave the UN and it would lose what little usefulness it still has.

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Test that argument and build something better if it holds true?

Btw, peer pressure works on countries too!

[–] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 22 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

This may also be a bargaining chip to get them into NATO.

[–] Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Concerning username, given the subject matter....

[–] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 9 points 3 weeks ago

😁

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 14 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I mean, yeah, but Orban is going to dig his heels in on that. So the only really viable option if Hungary blocks their entry indefinitely is to get nukes.

[–] tired_n_bored@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

And nuke orban preferably

[–] BMTea@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

There was absolutely no way that the West was going to allow a fragile, Russia-leaning corrupt new state keep the nuclear weapons, and Russia wasn't down for it either. It was never in the cards regardless of what Ukraine was granted "in return." Just as Ukraine will not be allowed to develop the bomb now by either Russia or the West.

[–] abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us 60 points 3 weeks ago

I agree. They deserved one of two things in returned for giving up their nukes.

NATO membership.

Or a mutual defense treaty of the style seen in South Korea and Japan - i.e. Ukraine should come under the US nuclear umbrella.

[–] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 44 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Don't forget America pinky promised security guarantees

[–] HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world 26 points 3 weeks ago

America promised to bring it before the UNSC, which they did.

93 Budapest memorandum if you wanna read

[–] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 14 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The UK and, funnily enough, Russia also promised to come to their aid

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 11 points 3 weeks ago

Where? The Budapest Memorandum just calls for the UK to call the UNSC in case Ukraine gets attacked. It does not mean the UK has to send any weapons or soldiers to Ukraine.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 22 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

There are several countries who gave up WMDs, either deployed or in development. Iraq, Libya, South Africa, and Ukraine. Of these, only South Africa was left alone. And to be clear, two of the remaining three were attacked by the US.

So what we've done here is signal to the smaller powers that they should never negotiate away their WMDs. You're just going to get invaded, anyway. I can't blame smaller powers for going that way at all.

Edit: and to be extra clear, this also applies to Iran and N Korea. They have no incentive to give up their nuclear programs.

[–] leftytighty@slrpnk.net 10 points 3 weeks ago

The hypocrisy against Iran in particular is bothersome in that Israel has illegally developed and possesses nukes. That's Iran's justification, and it's validated further with each passing day.

The American world order is falling apart and nuclear weapons are proliferating, we may very well see "tactical" nukes used in combat in my lifetime, and who knows what the response will be.

Meanwhile all anyone says about the decline of USA is "lol it's weird, they're so weird." A future history book, if we're lucky and have them, will have pictures of memes next to pictures of mushroom clouds.

Where the fuck is everyone

[–] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You know what? That's just fair. Everyone fucked Ukraine over with the Budapest memorandum so what else are they supposed to do?

[–] fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

How did "everyone" fuck Ukraine over? Russia fucked them.

[–] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

"Everyone" failed Ukraine by offering security promises that fell short when they were needed most. In 1994, Ukraine gave up the world’s third-largest nuclear arsenal, trusting the Budapest Memorandum, where Russia, the U.S., and the UK pledged to respect its sovereignty. But in 2014, Russia annexed Crimea, violating the deal, while the U.S. and UK only responded with sanctions, not the military support Ukraine might have expected. China and France also gave similar assurances, but they too did little to stop Russia. Ukraine was left vulnerable after disarming, betrayed by political promises that weren’t backed by action.

This was pretty much "every" Major Power at this time.

[–] fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Did the treaty say the US and UK would offer military assistance? I don't think it did, yet they are. I wish they'd give more, but it seems to me they're already going beyond any reasonable expectations based on that agreement.

The Kremlin is the only one that broke that agreement.

[–] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 0 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Okay let me brake that a bit down.

Imagine someone breaks into your house and steals stuff. You call the Police, the Police says "Okay! I now uninvited this Person from my Birthday party." And that is everything they do.

Just because the kept it vague enough to weasel their way out, means not that they don't fucked them over. This is some sleazy Car salesman tactics.

If you don't want to understand by now, then I must assume you argue in bad faith. One way or the other I'm not here to teach people. I'm happy to explain stuff but not if someone don't want to understand or is to dull to do so. I'm no teacher and don't get paid to do this.

[–] curiousaur@reddthat.com 20 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

They trusted Russia. Fatal mistake.

[–] Lux18@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

They trusted America too. Fatal mistake.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 9 points 3 weeks ago

America has fulfilled the terms of the agreement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Ukraine wanted specific security guarantees from America but did not receive them, and Russia obviously just violated the whole damn thing.

That said, in the spirit of the agreement we should give them some of our old nukes, we aren't using them.

[–] curiousaur@reddthat.com 7 points 3 weeks ago

I don't know how to tell you this, but America isn't at war with them.

[–] McDropout@lemmy.world -5 points 3 weeks ago

Shhh stick to the script! United States of North America GOOD!

Russia BAD!

[–] sunzu2@thebrainbin.org -5 points 3 weeks ago

It was a rookie move to give it up, it was a rookie move not to strap up, it was a rookie move not have contiguency plans in place.

Being right and good guy dont do shit. Having your guns and plans is how you survive.

Sucks to suck but this is real politik.

With that said, nuclear detterance doctrine is utter failure and rules based international order is a sad joke.

US is helping israel do genocide

Russia got korea to enter the war on their side.

Ukraine weapons with millionn restrictions and limp dick supoort with from US and Germany.

Lord have mercy, hoepfully balts, nords and ee countries support is enough for ukraine. Otherwise they gonna die slowly.