The holosuite episodes were an interlude and a break from the overarching dominion war arc allowing the crew to do something out of the box and wacky. Even then they often covered relevant topics such as Nog's PTSD. The heist episode is one of my favourite episodes in all of Trek.
this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2023
41 points (97.7% liked)
Star Trek Social Club
10676 readers
162 users here now
r/startrek: The Next Generation
Star Trek news and discussion. No slash fic...
Maybe a little slash fic.
New to Star Trek and wondering where to start?
Rules
1 Be constructive
All posts/comments must be thoughtful and balanced.
2 Be welcoming
It is important that everyone from newbies to OG Trekkers feel welcome, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, religion or race.
3 Be truthful
All posts/comments must be factually accurate and verifiable. We are not a place for gossip, rumors, or manipulative or misleading content.
4 Be nice
If a polite way cannot be found to phrase what it is you want to say, don't say anything at all. Insulting or disparaging remarks about any human being are expressly not allowed.
5 Spoilers
Utilize the spoiler system for any and all spoilers relating to the most recently-aired episode. There is no formal spoiler protection for episodes/films after they have been available for approximately one week.
6 Keep on-topic
All busmittions must be directly about the Star Trek franchise (the shows, movies, books, etc.). Off-topic discussions are welcome at c/Quarks.
7 Meta
Questions and concerns about moderator actions should be brought forward via DM.
Upcoming Episodes
| Date | Episode | Title |
|---|---|---|
| 11-28 | LD 5x07 | "Fully Dilated" |
| 12-05 | LD 5x08 | "Upper Decks" |
| 12-12 | LD 5x09 | "Fissure Quest" |
| 12-19 | LD 5x10 | "The New Next Generation" |
| 01-24 | Film | "Section 31" |
In Production
Strange New Worlds (TBA)
Section 31 (2025-01-24)
Starfleet Academy (TBA)
In Development
Untitled comedy series
Wondering where to stream a series? Check here.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
If you like that one and you've never seen the original Rat Pack Ocean's Eleven movie, do yourself a favor and watch it. It's not deep, it's not fantastic cinema, but it's entertaining as heck.
This broad ain't playin' with a full deck!
It felt totally natural to me watching it first time round. It’s part of DS9’s thing to be about a group of people who stay in one place and have lives and relationships. And it’s part of DS9’s thing to throw in stuff and let it grow if it works.
It balances against the harsh darkness of the main storyline, and in a 26 episode series you can’t just bash out war after war after war episode - everyone needs a break.
Probably also helps that it’s likely cheaper than other stuff to produce and means they can save some budget for a space battle in another episode.
It also fit, IMO, with the reality that they were on the frontier and in a war. Which from memory was made explicit when the program was introduced.
Whether you liked it or not, I think it made plenty of sense in universe.
It balances against the harsh darkness of the main storyline, and in a 26 episode series you can’t just bash out war after war after war episode - everyone needs a break.
The almost entirely relentless grimness of Picard season 1 is exactly why I detested it. Except Riker's pizza episode, the rest was just characters acting unconvincingly traumatised and chugging alcohol.
All his episodes felt like the showrunners were pulling a "Sandler" and just hooking up their out of work friend that used to have a hell of a lounge act.
He is a good actor and singer, but using him so much was just freaking weird. 100% filler in my opinion, even though they did some charector development in his episodes.
For some reason "filler" sounds negative to me, but I thought it was excellent filler. Stuffing is my favorite part of Thanksgiving dinner though 😁
Cause he was cool as hell. Him working with Nog was some of the best television ever. Only dumb thing was him being a person in the mirror universe. But that is minor. The singing after Jadzia died was gut retching.
that is legitimately my favorite thing about vic fontaine
Most people here are ignoring the main reason: the writers were just a bunch of baseball loving rat pack fans who took their love of those things maybe a little too far. In the case of baseball, we only had Take Me Out to Holosuite to deal with (which is a great episode--provided you like baseball, I suppose). In the case of the rat pack, we inexplicably got Vic Fontaine who you either love or hate. I wouldn't hate Vic Fontaine so much myself if they didn't force him to basically take up the space that Quark's Bar was supposed to be, and for him to be an integral part of the show so late in the series. And yes, the musical numbers take up too much time, if you ask me.
I'm just going to add that James Darren was actually a professional singer with gold records and multiple top ten hits before he started acting. It was nice to see that that wasn't entirely forgotten.
As much as I absolutely love DS9, I did not like the Vic Fontaine character. But, in general, I'm prejudiced against holodeck stuff, most of the time, because I felt Trek spent way too much time in the damn holodecks instead of exploring space.
At first, I didn't really mind this character that much. But then they really started giving him more screen time as the show went on, and that just made me resent the character. I did not want to spend time in the holodeck when they could have spent that time on the Dominion war storyline or on more interesting characters (Sisko, Dukat, Kira, Kai Winn, etc).
DS9 is still one of the few Trek series that, overall, I truly enjoyed, but I skip the Fontaine scenes whenever I go back and watch episodes now.
I actually loved Fontaine, but he was the exception for me, otherwise I totally agree with the sentiment. TNG and Voyager really overused them spectacularly, at least for me. At least Enterprise had the sense to take place before holodecks were invented (by the federation at least...)
I think Vic Fontaine is one of the weirdest things in Star Trek, and that's saying something. I couldn't believe he had such a big part in DS9. I enjoyed some of it and I always crack jokes about him so it was definitely entertaining but just so very weird.
I think I get what he was supposed to be, it's kind of like when they send comedians and singers onto military bases to boost morale of the troops. It was just such a weird choice to have that style of music. It felt totally out of place to me, and I'm sure it was seriously uncool at the time it was on TV.
Imagine being 15 or something and trying to persuade one of your friends that DS9 is amazing and really cool (which it was and is), so they come round to watch an episode with you and it's Vic Fontaine.
Swing and lounge had a bit of a resurgence in the '90s. It was probably a 'blink and you'll miss it' fad, but it was a whole thing for a certain demographic.
I say this as a genuinely uncool person who had listened to very old music from a very young age. (see username) It was unnerving to have other young people suddenly expressing positive interest in my record collection, but it was also nice that companies were reissuing some better content on CD.
That being said, Vic Fontaine was cartoonish and I hated those episodes. If it was meant to be a homage, it was a poor one.
Cool is an elastic thing. Sometimes it means popular. Sometimes it means wonderfully quirky. (I'm thinking of 11th Doctor's descriptions of his unusual sartorial choices.)
Kids like to fit in with their peers, so cool to them probably means what everyone else is into. I didn't like lounge music when I was a kid because it was of my parents' generation. I didn't like opera when I was a kid because I had little exposure to it, so it was weird. Happily, my tastes have broadened. I regret it didn't happen sooner.
Star Trek has become classic (except, maybe, Enterprise) for good reason. That's enough. They snagged James Darren at the end of DS9. Great. Some kids didn't get Vic Fontaine at first blush? Too bad. Try again. The best art requires a little effort.
Also, when you love something, your enthusiasm pulls in others. If they reject it because it's not popular, fuck 'em. Wonderfully quirky people are so much more interesting than people who fit in.
So that Sisko could do a song with him as a little icing on the DS9 cake
I felt the same way. I wonder if it hit differnt on TV at the time.
I found it weird when it aired. My recollection of watching it on TV as a teenager was that Vic became a big presence in the show very suddenly (I may be misremembering and it's been a while since I rewatched DS9) and the amount of screen time they devoted to him in late s6 and s7 felt odd.
Yea I wonder that too. At times the character worked rather well, but overall, IMO, it stands out as weird.
But, like you, I wonder if a Sinatra homage was just a much more natural and emotionally impactful thing for the mature fans (ie Boomers) watching in the 90s. I'd bet that it was at least less weird. Like at most they thought, "huh, writers are Sinatra fans ... ok" .. ?
Sinatra and ‘lounge music’ made a big comeback in the nineties with younger people then in their early twenties, that would Gen X, not the boomers.
Gen X thought the late 50s and early 60s were interesting 30 years later.
The Bond revival was also in full swing with that age group too, which is why we got Bashir’s Bond hijinks combined with lounge culture.
James Darren was the real deal as a lounge singer. His career was trending upwards again during the show because of the lounge culture trend.
I’m also going to make a pitch for holodeck/holosuite episodes. I would absolutely argue that in the 90s they weren’t filler at all.
They aren’t as interesting now because they are too close to technology that we use everyday. That’s likely why we aren’t seeing Holodeck episodes in the same way in the new era.
While virtual reality, and shared role playing games are deeply established now through massively multiplayer games and discord, Star Trek in the 90s was actually doing its s job as a science fiction show imagining what people could do with VR and what could go wrong.
Taking it back to TOS, a shore leave planet that turned out to have interactive holographic characters and an operating system gone wrong wasn’t a trope, it was an entirely new concept. More, it built on the psychological thriller concept of imaginary things becoming real and dangerous that was at the core of The Cage and the MGM movie Forbidden Planet that inspired Roddenberry.
In both the Berman era and in TOS, virtual reality shows were a key way to explore character development, relationships and team development within the ensemble of characters.
DS9 ‘Only a Paper Moon’ is a deep dive into withdrawal from reality due to trauma. I would say it may not be as successful now because it’s too on the nose and less allegorical given the way gaming and VR are used by many with trauma and anxiety as coping mechanisms.
Great post. Thanks!
Oh, I forgot about these. These songs are so lovely to catch up on