this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2024
122 points (95.5% liked)

Programmer Humor

19276 readers
2838 users here now

Welcome to Programmer Humor!

This is a place where you can post jokes, memes, humor, etc. related to programming!

For sharing awful code theres also Programming Horror.

Rules

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Source

Alt text:A screenshot from the linked article titled "Reflection in C++26", showing reflection as one of the bullet points listed in the "Core Language" section

top 26 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] rimjob_rainer@discuss.tchncs.de 16 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Java has reflection since version 1.1. It's actually quite useful in situations and most popular frameworks use it. It depends on you if it turns into a footgun.

[–] Zangoose@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

See my other comment for more detials but it kind of destroys the type safety of the language. In Java for example, it lets you modify private/protected fields and call private/protected methods.

It's also slower than accessing a field normally since you need to do a string lookup (but slightly faster than a hashmap/dictionary) so if you use it over a large enough list it'll cause slowdowns.

Most use cases for it in Java/C# revolve around testing, serialization, and dynamic filtering/sorting. And most of those cases can be handled more safely using macros/attributes (EDIT: and templates as well, though those are also pretty painful to deal with) because that gets handled at compile-time in C/C++.

You have to see it as "root"-mode, it gives you the means to do stuff you need to do but cannot do otherwise. Most times it's for workarounds for problems you can't solve. If you use reflection you are fully responsible.

Of course you normally shouldn't use it, in 10 years I used it maybe one or two times. It's more of a last resort.

[–] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

What macros or attributes provide serialization in C++?

[–] Zangoose@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

My bad, that's on me, it looks like the C++ libraries I found use either templates or boost's reflection. There might be a way to do it with macros/metaprogramming but I'm not good enough at C/C++ to know.

I'm learning rust and C at the same time and was mixing up rust's features with C's. Rust's answer to reflection is largely compile-time macros/attributes and I mistakenly assumed C's attributes worked similarly since they have the same name.

[–] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 3 points 4 days ago

Ah. Rust's macros and the C preprocessor's exist in vastly different universes. The C preprocessor is literally just a fancy programmatic copy-and-paste tool. Rust macros read the input source code and then execute other source code (the macro definition) to generate new source code that the compiler then reads.

I love Rust, but Rust macros are arguably more of a footgun than compile-time reflection would be, and as amazing as serde is (and no, there's nothing comparable in standard-compliant C++ yet), there's a strong argument that compile-time reflection would be a preferable technique for deriving serialization, argument-parsing, and similar feature.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 17 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

can someone explain what reflections are, plz?

[–] JakenVeina@lemm.ee 41 points 4 days ago (2 children)

It's the capability of a program to "reflect" upon itself, I.E. to inspect and understand its own code.

As an example, In C# you can write a class...

public class MyClass
{
    public void MyMethod()
    {
        ...
    }
}

...and you can create an instance of it, and use it, like this...

var myClass = new MyClass();
myClass.MyMethod();

Simple enough, nothing we haven't all seen before.

But you can do the same thing with reflection, as such...

var type = System.Reflection.Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly()
    .GetType("MyClass");

var constructor = type.GetConstructor(Array.Empty<Type>());

var instance = constructor.Invoke(Array.Empty<Object>());

var method = type.GetMethod("MyMethod");

var delegate = method.CreateDelegate(typeof(Action), instance);

delegate.DynamicInvoke(Array.Empty<object>());

Obnoxious and verbose and tossing basically all type safety out the window, but it does enable some pretty crazy interesting things. Like self-discovery and dynamic loading of plugins, or self-configuration of apps. Also often useful when messing with generics. I could dig up some practical use-cases, if you're curious.

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 8 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

You can also optimize this a bit.

You can use Activator.CreateInstance instead of reflecting and invoking the constructor.

You can also call MethodInfo.Invoke, you don't need to create a delegate.

Also worth noting that Source Generators have replaced the need for reflection in many cases.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Woah, that's some meta shit. Neat. :D

[–] Zangoose@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago (1 children)

It's pretty cool when you use it right but it's also really easy to shoot yourself in the foot with, even by C++ standards. For example, in other languages (I'm coming from Java/C# which both have it) it lets you access private/protected fields and methods when you normally wouldn't be able to.

There's also a noticeable performance penalty over large lists because you're searching for the field with a string instead of directly accessing it.

For the times it is necessary (usually serialization-adjacent or dynamic filtering/sorting in a table) to use reflection, it's faster at runtime than converting an object to a dictionary/hashmap. However, 99% of time it's a bad call.

[–] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 7 points 4 days ago

If you look at the proposal, this is specifically "static reflection", i.e. compile-time reflection. So it doesn't actually have any of the downsides you mention, as far as I can tell.

[–] elvith@feddit.org 17 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Not a C++ dev, but looking at Java, which has reflection: Reflection allows to inspect and modify runtime attributes of classes, interfaces, fields and methods. Even, when you don't know their names at compile time.

Basically take any object and just ask "what are your (even private) fields?" and then happily modify them, or call these methods, or...

[–] Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I can see the footguns, but I can also see the huge QoL improvement - no more std::enable_if spam to check if a class type has a member, if you can just check for them.

... at least I hope it would be less ugly than std::enable_if.

[–] Zangoose@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

There's a pretty big difference though. To my understanding enable_if happens at compile time, while reflection typically happens at runtime. Using the latter would cause a pretty big performance impact over a (large) list of data.

[–] Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Wouldn't compilers be able to optimize runtime things out? I know that GCC does so for some basic RTTI things, when types are known at compile time.

[–] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

For runtime reflection, no, you'd specifically be able to do things that would be impossible to optimize out.

But the proposal is actually for static (i.e. compile-time) reflection anyway, so the original performance claim is wrong.

[–] Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 days ago

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. I don't know how C++ could reasonably have Java-like reflections anyway...

[–] key@lemmy.keychat.org 13 points 5 days ago (3 children)

It's good the core language now has to have a reason before it deletes shit. Speaking of, when do they add full garbage collection and call it c+++?

[–] Flipper@feddit.org 17 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Garbage collection was at some point part of the spec but was removed in 23.

https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory/gc/declare_reachable

[–] mkwt@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago

If wasn't full garbage collection in the spec. It was some infrastructure support in the spec that would make it easier to write garbage collectors in C++.

[–] magic_lobster_party@fedia.io 5 points 4 days ago

There’s C++/CLI if you want to combine garbage collection with the pain of C++

[–] scrion@lemmy.world 5 points 4 days ago

This, however, is about diagnostics, i. e. annotating delete with a reason (message) to express developer intent when deleting a function, not about memory management.

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 6 points 5 days ago

Awesome, it's fucking overdue!

[–] starman@programming.dev 11 points 4 days ago

When you are in feature-bloated language competition and your opponent is C++

[–] 0x0@programming.dev 5 points 4 days ago

-std=C++17, check.