this post was submitted on 08 Mar 2024

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EU may slap retroactive tariffs on Chinese EVs as Commission finds evidence that China has been “unfairly” subsidizing its EV exports (electrek.co)

submitted 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) by 0x815@feddit.de to c/europe@feddit.de

33 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The European Commission says China hasn’t been playing fair in that its government has been paying subsidies through “direct transfer of funds,” among other actions, reports Reuters – which the EC says tips the balance in China’s favor and leaves European automakers out to dry.

Back in October 2023, Europe launched its formal investigation into the Chinese EV industry, as European companies are struggling to compete with the cheap, high-tech Chinese imports, made by low-cost labor, entering the European Union.

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[–] 0x815@feddit.de 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

There are a lot of good reports and investigations about forced labour in China across the web (as well as here on Lemmy). Those who also like watching documentaries may like

China: The Repressive Economic Giant

As China's influence continues to expand around the world, at home the regime is becoming more repressive. A UN report has denounced crimes against humanity against the Uyghurs and the international community has criticised its bullying stance towards Taiwan. Reports and analysis of the Middle Kingdom.

Addition for a warning: some of the documentaries contain content that may distress users.

[+] spacedout@lemmy.ml -15 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

Sorry, haven't almost all our European industries relied heavily on government subsidies, privatization of previously public entities, protectionism and so on? China is a socialist country, of course the government is subsidizing production. The reality is that China is outcompeting capitalist Europe (now sacrificed by the US) on capitalist terms. This move seems like an abandonment of free market laissez faire thinking in favour of mercantilism/outright iron curtain, while blaming it on the other guy.

[–] crispy_kilt@feddit.de 36 points 7 months ago (2 children)

China is a socialist country,

Lol

[–] jbk@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 7 months ago

average lemmy.ml mf

[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml -3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Well, yeah, it's complicated and all that, but still. For instance, did you know Huawei is a cooperative? I just learned.

[–] 0x815@feddit.de 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@spacedout

Well, yeah, it's complicated and all that, but still. For instance, did you know Huawei is a cooperative? I just learned.

Everything depends on the central government in China, whether it is a cooperative, a listed company, or a single person critical of the CCP. In tbe end, nothing happens without a highly centralized government.

[+] spacedout@lemmy.ml -6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

I think it's hard to tell and would advise against bombastic blanket statements like this, especially on China. We're talking about one billion people and the world's largest economy, after all. Our ability to clearly analyze China is hindered by its own opaqueness, but one should not forget the thick layer of propaganda we in the West are served whenever we're talking about one of the so-called strategic adversaries.

[–] crispy_kilt@feddit.de 4 points 7 months ago

the world’s largest economy

Incorrect. It is the second or third largest, behind the USA and the EU, depending on whether you count the EU as one economic entity.

[–] 0x815@feddit.de 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I posted a link above, there's enough information available and certainly more than one can post here. In a nutshell: nothing good ever comes from an authoritarian regime.

[+] spacedout@lemmy.ml -6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

There you go again making blanket statements, giving you a look of either being a little daft and unnuanced or some kind of propagandist. "Nothing good", unless you count biggest lift of people from poverty in history. Imagine two people being born in the sixties in India and China respectively. Both are dirt poor back then. Today one will still be poor, still in a third world country, while the other drives EVs, get their power from worlds largest green energy infrastructure, has working public services, best train system, etc.

[–] crispy_kilt@feddit.de 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Imagine two people being born in the sixties in India and China respectively.

I will happily imagine. Will you?

China: 55 million dead.

India: not.

Please note that the 55 million estimate is from a CCP party school official, not from a western historian - thus we can safely conclude that the number may well be higher.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

And I say this as someone as far left as left goes. We must not be blind to the crimes that have been committed, and are being committed, by terrible dictatorships that hide behind the ideas of Marx.

China is a state capitalist dictatorship engaged in genocide as we speak. Whether or not they have the audacity to call themselves socialist, or even communist, does not change their crimes.

[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml -3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

And I say this as someone as far left as left goes.

This is much like beginning a comment with "I'm not racist, but", with the inevitable horrible racism that follows. Your comment is such a gross simplification of history and dismissal of context, that it borders on the malign. For instance the number in your source says 15-55 million, not 55 million. The ideological broadside is very apparent. Facts not feelings, to paraphrase a broken clock.

Yes, China had a terrible famine in the 60s, but far left people tend to consider it in context China's historical famines, as well as the many millions dead to capitalist induced famine.
Leftists tend to consider deaths and consequences of capitalist imperialism when discussing foreign and developing nations.
Today India is listed as a country in "Serious" risk in the Global Hunger Index, while China is of course "Low".

These are just three aspects of context, of many, which you could have chosen to inform your comment. In stead it is perpetuating a US-vs-Them cold war, black and white rhetoric, making the West out to be exceptionally good, while China is entirely bad. Smart people smell the lies included in such oversimplification a long way. You run fast and loose with your facts, presenting allegations of Uyghur genocide as fact, while you probably know how the UN will not call it that, after long running and thorough investigations, a lack of evidence, etc. On the other hand, we in Europe are very much facilitating the ongoing genocide in Palestine, of which there is ample coverage.

[–] crispy_kilt@feddit.de 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

For instance the number in your source says 15-55 million, not 55 million.

Your statement is incorrect. I will quote for you.

Death toll in millions: 55

Researcher: Yu Xiguang (余习广)

Yu is an independent Chinese historian and a former instructor at the Central Party School of the Chinese Communist Party, estimated that 55 million people died due to the famine. His conclusion was based on two decades of archival research.

Facts not feelings, to paraphrase a broken clock.

There is so much irony in this sentence, that if it were edible, could feed the people Mao killed and then some.

Much of the rest of your response jumps back and forth between ad hominem, whataboutism, non sequitur, false equivalence and condescension to such an extent that it does not warrant a reply.

[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml -1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Ad hominem, whataboutism

There it is, the cry of the beaten information warrior

[–] kandoh@reddthat.com 15 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Sorry, haven't almost all our European industries relied heavily on government subsidies

Yes, and that stuff is factored in on every trade agreement the EU signs. The Chinese subsidies were not so now they are making the adjustments.

[–] soggy_kitty@sopuli.xyz 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

A lot of EU products with national subsidies are usually only available at a cheaper price to occupants in that country. I know it works that way for french car brands.

[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago

Honestly, when it comes to helping their national companies get ahead in the global market, European countries aren't that different from anywhere else. It's like a global game where everyone's trying to sneak their products into the lead with a little help from home. Think of it as governments giving their players the best gear, secret strategies, and even a map of shortcuts. Whether it's subsidies, regulatory loopholes, or strategic support, the end goal is the same: make sure our team wins, even if it means bending the rules of fair play. So next time you see a European car or product leading the pack, remember, it might have had a little "help" getting there.

[+] crazyminner@lemmy.ml -38 points 8 months ago (3 children)

China actually doing something about the climate crisis, and they actively get in the way. Shows how far our govs will go to prevent us from fixing this world.

[–] 0x815@feddit.de 36 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

@Nora

As the world's largest electricity producer with around 30% of global output, China still heavily depends on cheap coal. What happens in China is everything but ecological so far, unfortunately, very much as in the West.

That aside, Chinese cars are cheap not in the least through the use of forced labour in Xinjiang. It's a serious human rights problem, too.

[–] then_three_more@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

I thought the forced labour was in the aluminium itself? Which is a far bigger problem because it's embedded deep in the supply chain. So everything from your kitchen foil to your Polestar EV will be affected.

As for their domestic electricity, yes they have a lot of coal. They also have a lot, and very very rapidly increasing amounts of solar. Last year (if you fully believe their figures) they added 216.9 GW of solar capacity in comparison the USA added 35.3 GW.

[–] bilboswaggings@sopuli.xyz 8 points 8 months ago (2 children)

A lot of electricity is still made with fossil fuels and new cars (even electric) are worse for the environment than buying used

On top of that China is trying to get rid of competition with subsidies

It's not as black and white as you think

[–] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 18 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The rest are fine arguments, but this one:

A lot of electricity is still made with fossil fuels

is bad for several reasons:

power generation from fossil fuels gets more efficient when scaled up
fossil power plants can filter out more emissions than cars can
EVs can switch to better electricity sources, fossil burners will always be using fossil fuels

[–] then_three_more@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

power plants are situated away from population centres reducing the amount of localised air pollution that people breathe in. (I feel people sometimes forget that there's additional dangers of air pollution other than the climate crisis)

[–] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago

Great point, thanks for adding!

[–] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world -3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

We are in the middle of a climate crisis where every year of inaction dooms countless to death or at the very least catastrophically reduced quality of life.

It is absolutely one of the few things that is actually black and white.

Is China playing unfair? Yes, but it really doesn’t matter at this point, they are making more EVs and the correct response at this point is just to do the same.

We are in an emergency, act accordingly.

[–] 0x815@feddit.de 10 points 8 months ago (1 children)

@dumpsterlid

Slavery or forced labour, which is arguably a major economic driver for EV in China, is not the solution. We don't act accordingly if we allow something like that.

[–] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

By this logic buying any modern electronic devices or tools is not acting accordingly.

Also, I’m sorry I just don’t buy that this has anything to do with giving a shit about Chinese workers, it’s about portraying China as the Big Bad .

[–] 0x815@feddit.de 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

@dumpsterlid

By this logic buying any modern electronic devices or tools is not acting accordingly.

This is largely true, and it is largely true because a lot of modern electronic devices -or at least some of their parts- are 'Made in China'.

Europe must urgently work to gain back its production capabilities and force out any unfair competition, whoever this is or will be.

[–] then_three_more@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'd argue the correct response is to make more electric buses and other forms of mass transport. Then incentivise the use of public transport (and or self powered transport) and discourage the use of private transport entirely.

[–] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

Absolutely, no disagreement there, especially in the US bus systems are our best hope in many respects (honestly even fossil fuel burning busses have to be orders of magnitude better for the environment than everyone driving EV cars) but if the choice is between EV cars and gas cars the choice is clear.