this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
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Showerthoughts

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. A showerthought should offer a unique perspective on an ordinary part of life.

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[–] MdRuckus@lemmy.world 215 points 9 months ago (5 children)

Well, since it’s all made up, I guess you can claim whatever you want.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago (1 children)

We're here for an interesting discussion. Mythology totally off the table for you?

[–] SPRUNT@lemmy.world 42 points 9 months ago (8 children)

May as well be discussing the hypothetical offspring of Santa and the Easter Bunny.

[–] Zozano@lemy.lol 20 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] WhyAUsername_1@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)
[–] HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works 12 points 9 months ago

Zeus smashed everything

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[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.world 111 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Two things about that (overanalyzing your shower thought):

  1. Geneticists have what they call the "50/500 rule," which basically means that you need at least 50 people to avoid inbreeding, and at least 500 to avoid genetic drift. So while three people are 50% better than two, it's not going to come close to avoiding inbreeding.

  2. If you read up on Lilith, including your Wikipedia link, you'll see her name only comes up once in the Bible, and it's not as Adam's wife. All the stuff about her comes from other things, including Babylonian and Mesopotamian writings, and lots of folklore from the middle ages. And at that, she's sometimes Adam's first wife, with different explanations about what happened to her that really in her not coming back to the garden, or she's a demon. So there's not much likelihood that she's contributing to the gene pool.

[–] HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works 75 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (8 children)
  1. Wasn't Eve made from Adam's rib and thus shares his DNA?
[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.world 37 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 20 points 9 months ago (8 children)

would their kids be clones?

[–] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 21 points 9 months ago (4 children)

No, the products of incest.

Hemophilia and all that would be more likely, but no cool identical stuff going on

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[–] towerful@programming.dev 32 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

The only counterpoint i can see is that god is (honestly, at best WAS) infallible.
So god made 2 perfect humans who cannot inbreed as there are no defective genes.
At some point down the line, mutations came in and introduced possible genes that could combine/dominate to produce inbreeding.

If we are accepting the premise of 2 original humans, why not 2 perfect original humans.
If God made eve from adams rib, why not have them be genetically perfect.
But Im sure there is some science i am missing where a huge genome analysis has shown that "perfect" genes have never or could not ever exist.

And, tbh, this might as well be all science fiction based on a bunch of made up stories.

[–] CosmicTurtle@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago (1 children)

If I remember my hermeneutics, the canon is that essentially, God had "blessed" early descendants of Adam and Eve, allowing their children to thrive.

It wasn't until after the flood I believe that incest becomes more of a theme in the Bible, implying that they shouldn't have children.

But it's been years since I gave this any serious study so I may be remembering incorrectly.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago

It all makes more sense when you consider these stories in their historical social context. They're a compiled bundle of stories from various religious traditions that were kind of grafted together to form one monotheistic state religion to help unify the country. So you find stories from both north and south Judah for example, the two creation myths in Genesis. And you see the monotheistic god referred to by more than one moniker because they were originally different gods.

[–] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 13 points 9 months ago

Awesome, I was showing up for the demon angle.

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[–] mipadaitu@lemmy.world 67 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Because Lilith isn't mentioned in all versions of the Adam and Eve story, and certainly isn't mentioned in Genesis. There's plenty of versions of the story with lots of different characters, and plenty of interpretations of what happens, but in the Canonical Christian Bible, there are at least two events where the entire human race is only directly described as being one single family - Adam and Eve, and Noah's flood.

[–] QueenB@lemmy.world 25 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

The confusion comes from Genesis giving two creation accounts of a woman.

Genesis 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image,in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

then later...

Genesis 2:22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

It appears that a man and a woman were created at the same time in Genesis 1:27, then later in Genesis 2:22 a woman was created from a rib

[–] daddyjones@lemmy.world 42 points 9 months ago (2 children)

This is probably a result of the Hebrew literary practice of narrating a story once in poetic language and then again in prose. So it's the same man and woman being created, just retold in a different style.

[–] QuarterSwede@lemmy.world 25 points 9 months ago

This is correct. Context is everything in understanding any historical source. The Hebrew texts are no different, in fact they’re a great case study in this field. They’re littered with complex poems.

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[–] snausagesinablanket@lemmy.world 22 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This is the origin of the McRib.

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[–] ImWaitingForRetcons@lemm.ee 16 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Current scholarly consensus is that the Geneses are actually two different accounts, one likely originating in ancient Israel and the other in ancient Judah. It’s why the two stories are so startlingly different when you read them side by side.

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[–] fubo@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago

The Bible, and even the Torah, are compilations from stories that existed before these particular books were written down. However, the character of Lilith as "first wife of Adam" is probably not something left out of the Torah, but a much later invention.

[–] NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social 12 points 9 months ago

You have to remember that which books got to be canon in the Bible were decide at the Council of Nicea

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 51 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

Because Lilith is not actually mentioned in the Christian bible despite this wiki page's attestation she is mentioned in Isaiah. She only appears in rabbitic literature.

Lilith is also the catalyst to a lot of vampire myths often described as the mother of all vampires.

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[–] centof@lemm.ee 50 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden

Based.


All Hail Lilith, The sacred mother of Feminism

Tonesatire

[–] roofuskit@lemmy.world 19 points 9 months ago (1 children)

She became the first demon. The first example of the Bible literally demonizing women.

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 30 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Sort of but not really. Lilith isn't in the biblical version of Adam and Eve. There might be one mention of Lilith in and unrelated story in Isaiah, or it might be an old Hebrew word for screech owl.

The connection to Adam comes from folktales and fanfics written 1,000 years later. In terms of biblical tradition, she's closer to Steve than Adam.

The Bible does a fine job of demonizing women, starting with Eve. But Christians don't need a scriptural reason to demonize something they can't control.

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[–] RGB3x3@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago

That's the reason my wife and I named our daughter Lilith.

She's not taking anyone's shit.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 45 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Which might be relevant if those were real people. You might as well worry about the genetic makeup of Pokemon

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[–] melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone 30 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Incest doesn't inherently cause genetic disorders, it just increases your chance of being born with recessive genetic disorders. Most of those disorders are mutations, and if the Garden of Eden is so perfect there probably aren't genetic disorders to start out with, meaning incest is fine from a genetic perspective. All the genetic disorders would be mutations later down the line. Maybe they're punishment for the original sin or something, to fit it into the themes of the story.

[–] Crackhappy@lemmy.world 23 points 9 months ago

That's a fantastic retroactive nonsensical explanation for Adam and Eve. Bravo.

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[–] fidodo@lemmy.world 29 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Sounds like a shitty retcon from an series that jumped the shark

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[–] dustyData@lemmy.world 27 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't think creationism is particularly bothered by genetics.

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[–] Deceptichum@kbin.social 23 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Anyone feel like this is just the story of some douche who divorced his awesome wife to find a subservient slave wife and over thousands of years its become part of a religion?

“Oh that Lilith we don't talk about her she was a demon” he tells his grandson and 200 years after the story people interpret her as a literal demon, and just gets wackier and wackier as time goes on. Kinda feel like you could explain all that Abrahamic lore that way.

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[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

Can't have an ancient story without an evil woman you can blame everything on.

[–] key@lemmy.keychat.org 16 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Fucking your half-sibling is still incest.

[–] QueenB@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Yes, but Cain and/or Abel could have sex with Lilith and that offspring would not be the result of inbreeding.

Also, Eve could have sex with the offspring of Adam and Lilith and that would not be inbreeding.

After that everything else is unless there are more people.

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[–] Lojcs@lemm.ee 16 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Couldn't God just create more humans after the first three? Is it certain that he creates 3 and then explicitly stops?

[–] MNByChoice@midwest.social 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Eve had two sons. Cain found a wife "somewhere". Cain was also marked so no one would kill him, but the three other people known to exist were his parents and dead brother.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Cain found a wife in the Land of Nod. It's never explained where those people came from.

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[–] CultHero@lemmy.world 15 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Lilith mated with demons not humans.

[–] UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

God is there any way where I can be Lilith?

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[–] slazer2au@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Also Adam lived quite a long life. Like several human lifetimes

Then there is this fun titbit.

Adam withdrew from Eve for 130 years after their expulsion from Eden, and in this time both he and Eve had sex with demons, until at length they reunited and Eve gave birth to Seth

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[–] phorq@lemmy.ml 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

If you're grasping at cousins as being the sole separator you know you have a problem. But also there's a lot of conflicting information, such as Cain settling in the city of Nod east of Eden which suggests I guess that there were people outside of Eden already. Don't take anything too literally, and jokes are jokes.

[–] QueenB@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

And God got mad at Lilith for not being obedient and banished her so perhaps there were a series of Liliths. I think Eve was taken from the rib because that was supposed to make her less independently minded than creating her from the dust like Lilith.

[–] phorq@lemmy.ml 11 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Actually, the rib part is a bit of a mistranslation: https://youtu.be/FN4pVp6lNJ0

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[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 12 points 9 months ago

Thing is, Lilith didn't pop up in texts apart from post-Jesus, such as talmudic texts. (although a Lilith was mentioned in Isaiah, it could have been a demon of some sort) so she'd only really be regarded by modern day Judaism, not by Christians.

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