this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2023
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Say what you will about reddit, at least an established subreddit was the place to gather on the topic, ie r/technology etc.

With Lemmy, doesn't it follow that similar communities on different instances will simply dilute the userbase, for example !technology@lemmy.ml and !technology@beehaw.org. How do we best use lemmy as a (small c) community when a topic can be split amongst many (large C) Communities?

This is an earnest question, in no way am I suggesting lemmy is inferior to reddit. I'm quite enjoying myself here.

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[–] PriorProject@lemmy.world 77 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Say what you will about reddit, at least an established subreddit was the place to gather on the topic, ie r/technology etc.

This premise on which your question is based isn't actually true though. There's /r/technology and also /r/tech. There's /r/DnD and also /r/dndnext. As of recently, for some reason there are like 35 nearly identical amitheasshole subreddits with different names.

I feel like what you're observing is just that reddit communities are mature, people have had time to gravitate to whichever community is more active or has better quality moderation and so there is generally a "winner" sub with more participation because... unless there's a major problem with the bigger sub it tends to be more interesting than a less well-trafficked sub.

Lemmy, in contrast, is still fairly wild-west. Most communities are not very active and have only a few subscribers. If a competing community with an overlapping topic appears, folks are willing to subscribe to it just in case it takes off. If Lemmy continues to retain a healthy number of users, I expect in most cases that consolidation would set in unless there were major differences in moderation policy or something else that splits the community into factions that align across server or community boundaries... and over time you'll see a similar layout of one or two dominant communities and a long tail of tiny ones that few pay attention to.

[–] blitzen@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I thank you for your response, and generally think you are right. Perhaps I should rephrase my question a bit to: is the existence of multiple communities on a given subject a feature of Lemmy (perhaps even unique to Lemmy) we should expect and embrace, or do you think communities coalescing into few/one will occur naturally?

[–] thegiddystitcher@beehaw.org 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Not the person you asked but personally I do think it'll naturally happen that we just end up glomming together into certain communities. That's how it tends to go with any such thing. But one slightly overlooked benefit is that splinter communities can have the same name. No passive-agressive "/c/thetopic", "/c/realthetopic", "/c/betterthetopic", "/c/thetopicwithouttoxicmods" etc etc etc.

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[–] RoundSparrow@lemmy.ml 36 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I don't think people know (how end-users will cope with the distributed choices of Lemmy). Reddit 2023 is nothing at all like Lemmy. One could be considered a household name for regular users of the Internet, the other a return to something more like FidoNet.

I come from the BBS days of the early 1980's and even social media radio before that. I come from IRL user group meetings, held at public library and after-hours company meeting rooms. It has always bothered me that current-day subreddits have mostly no identity to the moderators and that moderation is often behind the scenes.

I guess it's like "corporate experience" that people expect this day in society... that you can walk into a generic franchise chain bar and grill and not really care who the owner/operator and bouncers are of your hangout. Anyone can start a topic/ conversation and there is just some anonymous janitorial crew who is supposed to clean up the overflowing mess if (non-venue) spam or hate messages enter into the space.

The mechanisms of who pays for the venue and the moderators also was a topic most people never bothered to think about. Like it was some taxpayer-funded city park and perhaps the admin police might spot check if anyone was causing a tragedy in that there commons. But reality is that it was a profit-seeking venue charging a cover charge in the form of selling copies of your contribution and changing the tone of your meeting space by controlling the jukebox that visitors hear in terms of advertising messages inserted into the conversation space.

Lemmy seems small, owner/operator focused, and you get a sense that each instance is like some small bar and grill where you can come and meet some strangers or friends to discuss some topics under house rules. Your tips help pay for the hosting and the jukebox isn't piped in memes from advertisers.

I remember when Reddit had known owners with known ideals, but that was very long ago. I've found making it big (with the associated wealth) changes people. One owner even committed suicide over his society ideals about sharing information. Ultimately I feel like a lack of topic participation by the moderators and owners alike made people thoughtless as to their own role in building a human community and people often felt like they were fighting machines and code.

sorry if this meandered off topic, but lately I've had some long-time friends ask me 'what is Reddit" since it is in the news lately, and I find it hard to explain what Reddit used to be (before new Reddit and the addition of images/video) vs. the corporate-like entity we know today that our contributions and participation helped empower over the past 17 years. I've used it mostly daily for all that time, and I have been unhappy with society's dehumanizing direction for too many years.

/ramble from a disturbed mind.

[–] Barbarian@lemmy.reckless.dev 20 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I hear you man. I went from active contributor to mostly lurking on Reddit, and it wasn't even a conscious choice. Gradually, everything became very mechanistic. I knew what the top few comments would be before going to the comments. The churn became cyclic in nature.

After just a few days here, it was actually a little disconcerting how antagonistic and hostile people there are in the comments section. That's just how people communicate, on a hair-trigger from flamewar.

I recognize your username, I saw what you wrote about SQL scaling. Can you imagine recognizing a username in a major subreddit in the reddit of today?

The dichotomy between the big communities which people subscribe to from all over Lemmy and the small meta/announcement/server issue communities for each individual instance is gonna be interesting to see develop as the userbase increases. Kinda like the difference between seeing people from your street everyday, then many more less familiar people in the city center.

[–] nickajeglin@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I agree with what both of you are saying about the antagonism of the community writ large, but I am going to miss the small subs. There are dozens of them I subbed that have 500 or 1k users and are really tightly focused communities. They still have that feel from 2010ish reddit.

I'm ready to close the book on reddit as a whole, but I really will miss r/heavyseas and r/obscuremedia and r/theocho and r/desirepath etc.

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Can you imagine recognizing a username in a major subreddit in the reddit of today?

I have noticed this recognition on large posts on modern reddit, but it's usually for not good reasons, because the poster is just karma whoring.

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[–] kiwi@lemmy.one 9 points 1 year ago

Thanks for laying out this analogy. I agree with your sentiment and think it extends outside of the internet too. When I think of different scenes in the real world, they feel like they’ve all fallen into either super corporate places where you’re encouraged to spend money or meetup groups with no personality.

[–] nutomic@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

This is a great analogy, well explained.

[–] psysok@beehaw.org 24 points 1 year ago

Follow both and just post to whichever one you prefer? Eventually certain communities will tend to coalesce, but it isn't a terrible thing if there are multiple options either.

[–] Krusty@feddit.it 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a very good thing to avoid what happened on Reddit that a big istance is moderated by people that don't think democratically and rule against other people's will deleting posts and banning everyone they don't like.

With federation, you can choose the instances and communities you like the most, the ones with better moderation and so the kindest one will probably prevail :)

[–] Blue@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This assumes that power doesn't corrupt and that the big "kind" communities don't eventually turn bad.

[–] Krusty@feddit.it 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's exactly the point: if they become "bad", we can always move to another one with the same name but on another instance

[–] seirim@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

This is such a great feature and advantage.

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[–] JshKlsn@lemmy.ml 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Say what you will about reddit, at least an established subreddit was the place to gather on the topic, ie r/technology etc.

There are plenty of subs that have branched off due to corrupt mods and other things.

/r/meirl and /r/me_irl

/r/web_design and /r/webdesign (merged now, though)

/r/gaming, /r/truegaming

but I do agree with you. It definitely hurts to have communities fragmented. Especially if new users don't understand how to view or subscribe to communities outside their instance, they may never see the more popular community on a different instance.

[–] gnoop@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

I think changing the default view for content and communities would help. Branching off is one thing and there may be a valid reason for the split. However, I wonder how many current duplicates are accidental. The current setup for Lemmy is to view Local communities by default. An intentional creation of a separate community for a reason is one thing.

Fragmentation of the communities will probably end up happening with time but I don't know that it's best to have things fragment early on when communities and those identities are still, in some cases, in the early stages of development.

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[–] Kaldo@beehaw.org 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think there's been talk of implementing "multireddits" so you can combine them in your own feed but who knows when it's coming. I personally think it's good to have the communities as segmented as possible, if one goes to shit then you can easily just stop participating there and move to others.

[–] blitzen@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

A 'multi-community' feature would be welcome.

[–] Hiyoihoi@lemmy.one 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I suppose having similar communities split across multiple instances is the essence of a federated system. People will gather in communities they feel comfortable.

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[–] PorkrollPosadist@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How do you deal with r/TOTK and r/Tears_of_the_Kingdom?

[–] sup@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago

Great analogy. Same with r/RingsOfPower and r/LOTR_on_Prime. One community doesn't like the show and the other one does. You join whichever most aligns with your preference.

[–] that_one_guy@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It would be nice if the instances could essentially federate themselves across instances. If two communities agree, they could both combine and show the posts from one another's feeds, without sacrificing their autonomy. This way if you are subscribed to once instance's community, you could see content from a much larger super community.

[–] DudePluto@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It will sort itself out. The only difference is reddit's search function works slightly better because it's centralized, but I think that issue will be solved eventually

[–] wizjenkins@lemmy.wizjenkins.com 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I could see a good use case for having at least a centralized, cross instance search where the instances will send up community information to the service and then the service shares it out with everyone. Rather than make a new community on my instance I could find the active community and federate it.

Then again the same thing happens on Reddit for popular topics. Like when a new game is announced there might be 5 people trying to start the subreddit for it.

Definitely early days teething issues. There's gonna be thousands of dead communities in a week's time and it'll take time before things settle down and people come to a consensus on the major ones.

[–] veroxii@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think over time some apps will add functions to allow you to visually merge them. But purely at a UI level. They will still be separate instances on the backend.

[–] Mac@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Maybe have custom lists created by keyword that merge all the content and the user can blacklist any instances they don't want.

[–] Hiyoihoi@lemmy.one 10 points 1 year ago

But yes good question overall from what i can tell the more posts one community gets the more attraction it will pull. Reddit would of been similar in the early days when multiple communities existed for the same thing.

[–] WhoRoger@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

It would be really nice if communities could be connected right at instance level.

So if you have c/abc on instance 1 and c/abc on instance 2, and you subscribe to either of them, it would, by default, subscribe you to both (assuming that both instances agree to such a cooperation).

Something could also be arranged within communities, especially when it comes to posting. Such as, when posting, to be able to select multiple coms to post to, but it would still be just one post you could edit or delete, and have all the comments in one place.

On Reddit I would sometimes struggle with which sub to post to, and I don't like posting to multiple ones or crossposting if I can avoid it.

[–] Evkob@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

At that point why not just agree within both communities to all migrate into a single community on whatever instance?

[–] WhoRoger@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

They may also not be exactly the same just with a significant overlap.

But yea why not. It's just a suggestion for an option that should exist imo.

[–] anonionfinelyminced@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

For subscriptions, I would personally favor a "discovery" mode. When you sub c/abc on Instance 1, it tells you about c/abc on Instances 2 and 3 with the option to sub to them individually.

I like the idea of a single post that gets tagged to the communities it should appear in. Moderators would probably want the option to block or control something like that though, considering the risk of spam.

[–] WhoRoger@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I think this would reduce spam if anything. If someone does misuse it, then only one post needs to be reported as spam instead of every sub/com needing to deal with it individually.

Also, a user who is subbed to multiple coms, would only see the post once instead of multiple times.

And for actual spammers it's never a problem to make a hundred identical posts anyway.

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[–] RadDevon@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My way of dealing with it is to subscribe to all instances of the community so I don't miss anything. If I feel ownership of the community, I would encourage others in the community to do the same.

[–] Dalinar@lemmy.nz 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The problem with that is duplicate threads about every popular thing.

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[–] RoundSparrow@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

How do we deal with similar communities on different Lemmy instances?

I suggest creating some communities like "FindingTech", and "FindingScience" and "FindingPets" with some similar naming convention - that covers this topic explicitly. That Finding* communities be the place people discuss the various instances and their experiences/ideals.

I could also see someone creating an entire magazine-like website that highlights new and changing communities and new owner/operators on the scene. Also present a tree of links that is organized based on reviews and allows bookmarking. Such data could be passed down to mobile clients or even some kind of webapp page of Lemmy sites.

Reddit was one big monolithic system operating under a multinational corporation jurisdiction. Small time Lemmy instances may be following conventions of a nation that end-users have never visited... it is much more of a "World Wide Web" convention, and you can see it much more in your face in how the language choice is presented to you on every posting you make.

Think about it - how long until owner/operators of Lemmy instances have to deal with DMCA takedown requests for images? Court-ordered disclosure of IP address and browser information? Who is to say that an operator won't just put everyone's IP Address out as public record - there are forums that operate that way. With massive websites like Twitter, Reddit, Facebook - a government seeking copies of deleted comments and IP Address is all behind the scenes and rarely disclosed (and even then, mostly disclosed in news reports that police got a copy of social media messages and had an account shut down after a shooting or other crime).

[–] duringoverflow@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

I suggest creating some communities like "FindingTech", and "FindingScience" and "FindingPets" with some similar naming convention - that covers this topic explicitly. That Finding* communities be the place people discuss the various instances and their experiences/ideals.

this is completely different than the issue described. A unified approach on search and/or communities is not being solved by a community where people will suggest other communities.

[–] FuzzyDunlop@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly we'd better picking another main instance from scratch. lemmy.ml is federated with a cesspool of russian shills (lemmygrad) and we don't need this, we really don't need them. Nevermind how many people can register on our new instance, more redditors can start new instances as time goes one and still connect to the communities (subs) on our new one. In a way we don't completely escape federation.

The bonus is that if the admins of the new instance go reddit-crazy, we always have the possibility of picking another instance as the main one.

You bring up an interesting point and it's something that I've been wondering since I learned about lemmy and the federated structure; will it end up being more or less susceptible to bots and bad actors than reddit? I don't have a prediction, I really don't know. But if even a small percentage of the reddit userbase migrates and sticks around we're going to find out because it's going to become a target.

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