this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023
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206
Left Politicians Are Showing How to Respond to the Horrors in Israel and Palestine (jacobin.com)
submitted 1 year ago by lemmus@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[–] kescusay@lemmy.world 204 points 1 year ago (13 children)

I will never understand why that's so difficult for some people. Calling on Israel to stop the illegal "settlements" in no way indicates support for Hamas.

To be 100% clear, the horrific murders and mutilations they've committed are inexusable and Hamas should be utterly dismantled, with every surviving member put on trial for war crimes. That can be true at the same time as it's true that Israel's illegal annexation of territory and treatment of Palestinians is wrong.

Please, can someone tell me they understand that? Am I taking crazy pills, here?

[–] starryoccultist@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You aren't crazy. This must have been what it was like being a sane, thinking person right after 9/11 and during the run up to the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions and seeing everyone around you descend into psychotic, genocidal bloodlust. That's par for the course for conservatives but it is genuinely horrifying to see it coming from liberals and people on the left.

[–] meyotch@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago

I remember that sinking feeling and realizing that our culture was going to use 9/11 as an excuse to act really terrible. I’m from the western US and had no cultural or personal ties with anyone east of the Mississippi, so I had less of an emotional connection to the actual terrible events. Nothing has been quite the same since in our culture.

[–] laylawashere44@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 1 year ago

It's only difficult for some. On one hand the Israeli government purposely equates Jews as people with Israel as a nation to deflect criticism. Hell even shady Israeli spy companies like the ones behind the pegasus exploit followed about the reporters from uToronto to try to get them to make anti-Semitic or anti-zionist remarks so as to discredit their reporting on a government sanctioned hacker group that sells to dictators. On the other hand actual anti-semites hide their anti-semitism in criticism of Zionism. Which is how you get gas the Jews chants at pro-palestine rallies.

[–] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

All I've heard are people that don't support either group.

The only "support" I heard were from people claiming others had support for either. It was all third person.

Are there really people who support either?

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Sadly, yeah. I've seen a few on Lemmy, which disappoints me. I mean, it's not that hard:

  • Don't support targeting civilians and cutting people's heads off.
  • Don't support illegal settlements and systematic oppression.

Why is that difficult? Why is it so goddamn difficult to say both are wrong in different ways? Supporting Israel's right to exist free from terrorism against innocent civilians is not identical to supporting illegal expansion and the oppression of the Palestinian people. And supporting Palestine's right to exist free from tyranny and encroachment is not identical to supporting Hamas, which is a horrendous terrorist organization that is just as awful to the Palestinians as they clearly are to civilian Israelis.

[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Just look further down in this thread. You can see one person justifying Hamas and saying "slave rebellions require the wanton killing of their masters" and another justifying Israel's actions by conflating all of Palestine with Hamas.

It's the rare case where there are actually a nontrivial group of people taking what would be otherwise a strawman position. And that makes it incredibly difficult for us to discuss this like adults. This conflict is the perfect storm of centuries of geopolitics, anti semitism, anti Muslim sentiment, and nationalism.

The only good people here are the innocent civilians, and they're the ones being brutally murdered and bombed and taken hostage.

[–] morphballganon@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Republicans don't understand nuance. Every conflict is a football game. Either you support the good guys or you're a despicable other team fan.

[–] Naja_kaouthia@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago

Nope. I got some if you’d like though. The nuances of a situation seem to be lost on a lot of people. You can disapprove of the Israeli government’s actions (or lack thereof) and not be pro hamas or antisemitic. Unless you ask the internet at large, I suppose.

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think the one point of nuance that's continually lost (and ironically, you glossed over it as well) is the Israeli treatment of Palestinians. They're doing more than just "annexing" and "being mean". They've been murdering and disappearing Palestinian civilians for decades.

[–] banneryear1868@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I think Israel has been complacent, because it's been relatively easy for them to live with Iron Dome and use Gaza as an open-air prison. The scale and effectiveness of this attack is unprecedented even if an attack is expected in general, which makes Israel's failure to stop this and Hamas' success even more surprising.

It's really good to see Burgis (and Jacobin) publish something level-headed about the situation from the left, as well as seeing some Marxist pages I follow make the same distinction. Left pages (I've only seen a few personally) posting memes about revolutionary violence to sort of under-handedly voice support for Hamas I find pretty abhorrent, considering how anti-Communist Hamas is, not to mention would gladly start their own final solution if given the chance.

I don't think anyone should feel good about supporting any group but civilians in this conflict. That means Israel needs to stop treating Palestinians as "animals," which is what their Defense Minister recently openly referred to them as. That also means siding with Palestinian civilians but not the anti-semitic, fascist, Hamas. Many Israeli politicians probably have more in common with Hamas than not in their ideaology. The good people in this fight are the ones not fighting.

The unfortunate thing is how Israel's western allies are basically enabling their complete blockade of Gaza from here on out. 2 million people will have no power, food, water, or medical supplies coming in, while being bombed with nowhere else to go, with the full support of it's allies.

[–] atetulo@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

I will never understand why that’s so difficult for some people. Calling on Israel to stop the illegal “settlements” in no way indicates support for Hamas.

It's because Zionists have enjoyed complete control over the narrative for decades.

They're in overdrive right now trying to regain that control, and it isn't working.

[–] beebarfbadger@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Okay, but if one of the two, and only two, groups that some demagogue has helpfully divided the world into for me is bad, then the other must be good, right? That's how the world works, right?

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nope. However I think it's important to recognize that desperation breeds radicalization. And Israel creates fertile ground for this.

Proportionally speaking, at least people are publicly talking about how shitty Israel is for now, which is better than before since nobody cared about the many dead Palestine civilians over the years. In that sense, the PA get to actually have a conversation in the media while Hamas can be the fall guy.

Reddit worldnews has had a live thread about Russian invasion of Ukraine since February last year. They didn't have one for the Israeli occupation.

[–] TechyDad@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This works both ways also. Israelis feel like they are constantly under threat of attack from rockets, bombs, and now raids that kill civilians. This increases support for hard line, right wing politicians who will act swiftly and harshly. Temporary anger over the attack (which, to be clear, is justified), can result in actions that cross the line.

It's a vicious cycle. Israelis feel attacked and so support right wing politicians who promise them safety. Then the Palestinians are attacked and turn to terrorist groups like Hamas to strike back. Repeat again and again and again. Neither side is willing to back down because they have to get revenge for the latest attack even though this revenge will cause another attack.

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I completely agree. I understand why radicalization occurs within Palestine, but this attack does not advance the goals of Palestine in any way but in fact exacerbates their already-dismal conditions tenfold. To me, I feel that Israel has nearly all of the agency to actually change the paradigm, but of course won't. Meanwhile Palestinians are pretty much voiceless on the world-stage and so "acting out" is the only way they can get attention. It's a horrible state of affairs that can only resolve by some miracle of a true leader presenting themselves within both camps and seeking to truly turn the page.

[–] TechyDad@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think Israel has "all the agency." Part of the problem is that, with Hamas in charge, Israel would be trying to negotiate with someone whose stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel.

Suppose that, starting tomorrow, Israel treated the Palestinians perfectly. No military members assaulting innocent Palestinian citizens. No blockades of crucial supplies. Not even guards at checkpoints keeping Palestinians from entering/leaving certain areas.

If Hamas and similar organizations kept up attacks (because they wouldn't have achieved their goal of wiping out Israel), it would just lead to pressure to restore those measures (despite them being flawed). The more attacks, the more pressure to act as the more likely that the government would crack down again.

It's tricky because the Palestinians don't want to stop because they fear the Israelis trampling them and the Israelis don't want to stop because they fear terrorist attacks. Both fears are valid but it's resulting in a toxic cycle of violence. It would take both sides cooperating to break this cycle. Sadly, I don't think the current leaders on either side want to even attempt this.

[–] lennybird@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I generally agree with you here; though as a caveat if I understand right, Hamas changed their charter to accept the the 1967 borders two-state solution as of 2017, suggesting a willingness to coexist.

Whether that's in good faith or not I don't know.

[–] buzziebee@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I like you acknowledge both wrongs, but you mustn't have spent much time looking at post replies and comments if you think the people decrying the implicit supporters of Hamas are the problem.

I think the thing that's putting an incredibly sour taste in a lot of people's mouths is that anyone who decries the wanton slaughter and rape of innocent civilians by a terrorist group is absolutely bombarded with replies from blindly pro palestinian comments saying things like:

"Israel asked for this"

"Those people shouldn't have been there if they didn't want to get raped and killed"

"People have a right to self defense"

"Look at this map which doesn't reflect the whole story of this conflict, implying that it's justified"

"Freedom fighters fighting against oppression/apartheid/open air jail"

Paraphrased obviously but this is what it reads like. It's hard not to see people posting that stuff whilst bodies are still warm on the ground instead of condemning the barbaric attacks as not implicitly supporting Hamas and the disgusting crimes they just committed. There is no "but" after decrying these attacks. They are unjustifiable and inexcusable.

Obviously Israel needs to stop creating settlements in the west bank, but bringing that up relentlessly like a bot farm of brain damaged propagandists doesn't help the cause. It feels the same as Russian trolls claiming Ukraine is run by Nazis, or MAGA people taking about some laptop. Nothing gets taken seriously when it's clearly a one sided megaphone style discussion.

Making it look like any pro palestinian discourse is actually just people supporting their preferred football team doesn't help create dialogue and a future peace. You're just creating an echo chamber which to less invested observers seems to be celebrating rape and murder of civilians.

[–] Doorbook@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

The problem is the wording. If you say "To be clear, the horrific murder and the mutilation they've commited are inexcusable and Israel military and government, or Zionist, should be utterly dismantled, with every surviving member put on trial for war crimes" you would be labeled antisemitic, terrorist, and this might be consider hate speech which be law if your employer find out, they can fire you. And if you are a head of State, a politician, a journalist, most likely you will be forced to right an apology, and declare "Israelis" have god giving rights to the land..