this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2023
51 points (98.1% liked)

Green - An environmentalist community

5354 readers
1 users here now

This is the place to discuss environmentalism, preservation, direct action and anything related to it!


RULES:

1- Remember the human

2- Link posts should come from a reputable source

3- All opinions are allowed but discussion must be in good faith


Related communities:


Unofficial Chat rooms:

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Right now, could you prepare a slice of toast with zero embodied carbon emissions?

Since at least the 2000s, big polluters have tried to frame carbon emissions as an issue to be solved through the purchasing choices of individual consumers.

Solving climate change, we've been told, is not a matter of public policy or infrastructure. Instead, it's about convincing individual consumers to reduce their "carbon footprint" (a term coined by BP: https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/23/big-oil-coined-carbon-footprints-to-blame-us-for-their-greed-keep-them-on-the-hook).

Yet, right now, millions of people couldn't prepare a slice of toast without causing carbon emissions, even if they wanted to.

In many low-density single-use-zoned suburbs, the only realistic option for getting to the store to get a loaf of bread is to drive. The power coming out of the mains includes energy from coal or gas.

But.

Even if they invested in solar panels, and an inverter, and a battery system, and only used an electric toaster, and baked the loaf themselves in an electric oven, and walked/cycled/drove an EV to the store to get flour and yeast, there are still embodied carbon emissions in that loaf of bread.

Just think about the diesel powered trucks used to transport the grains and packaging to the flour factory, the energy used to power the milling equipment, and the diesel fuel used to transport that flour to the store.

Basically, unless you go completely off grid and grow your own organic wheat, your zero emissions toast just ain't happening.

And that's for the most basic of food products!

Unless we get the infrastructure in place to move to a 100% renewables and storage grid, and use it to power fully electric freight rail and zero emissions passenger transport, pretty much all of our decarbonisation efforts are non-starters.

This is fundamentally an infrastructure and public policy problem, not a problem of individual consumer choice.

#ClimateChange #urbanism #infrastructure #energy #grid #politics #power @green

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 18107@aussie.zone 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

The best lie from the fossil fuel industry is putting the burden of responsibility on the individual, and not the corporations.
The idea of a "carbon footprint" was created by the fossil fuel industry to convince people and governing bodies that individual people are the problem (and solution), and to distract from the pollution caused by industries.

There is so much completely unnecessary waste in industries that individuals couldn't possibly compete with. Most people aren't even aware of how much is wasted before the products even reach them.

The best way to fight climate change is to hold companies accountable.

[–] freequaybuoy@mastodon.green 1 points 1 year ago

@18107 @ajsadauskas Gaslighting, literally

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] largess@mastodon.au 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@ajsadauskas
These are excuse trotted out by deniers in order to keep emitting and/ comes from entitlment. Not saying that's you bit thats essentially the sane arguments they use

As to the toast allegory, it's a nonsense argument because even then poorest Africans have emissions, a duck has emsisions, the debate needs to be around sustainable emsisions.

Apparently BP holds a gun to peoples heads and tells them not to vote Green, to fly to Bali for holidays and to buy a car and not cycle. It's not their fault Chevron hasn't invented a zero emsisions plane and zero emissions hovercraft.

You will AlWAYS have emsisions, the trick is we need get them to about 2-3t per annum (living like the average Cuban, not the average Australian) so do your bit to get your personal emisisons down to where they need to be AND vote Green to move the Overton Window and start allowing structural reform.

If it all sounds too hard just wait a few decades until Climate Changes destruction really hits home to even the developed world.

Everyone has to eat, no one has to fly or drive a car. Everyone can Vote Green (not to get them into power but to show all polticans it's time to take this seriously) and to allow the rise if the really radical politcans we need.

Voters don't, not becase of BP, Chevron or Shell but becase of greed, entitlement and apathy.

-----

>"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." -Edmund Burke

@green

[–] wav3ydave@mas.to 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

@largess @ajsadauskas @green "No-one has to drive a car" is a pretty sweeping statement that I would argue is also entirely factually wrong. If you live 10 miles from work somewhere where there's been decades of no provision for any other form of transport, you need systemic change before not driving is an option.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] jackofalltrades@mas.to 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

@ajsadauskas @green

Why not both?

Individuals need to change their expectations and consumption patterns, while the policy and infrastructure need to change in tandem.

You are not going to get radical reforms from the government without popular support from the population. That requires sacrifices and changes in societal norms.

In your toast example, the option that is available to everyone right now is to _not_ make the toast.

Just eat the damn bread.

You don't need a toast.

[–] scottmatter@aus.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@jackofalltrades @ajsadauskas @green

The zero emissions option, unfortunately, is to not eat. Whether it’s bread or toast.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] JungleJim@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Yes, the problem is reheating the bread, not everything it took to make the bread you glossed over that OP listed. It's the toasting the bread that makes it so bad

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] urlyman@mastodon.social 3 points 1 year ago (65 children)

@ajsadauskas @green is it not worse than that?

There is more or less a 1:1 correlation between energy use and GDP.

We don’t have the time to build out the scale of renewable infrastructure that would replace our current energy use.

We need to use much less energy which means much smaller and therefore radically different economies

https://tickzero.com/film-3-techno-optimism/

[–] anne_twain@theblower.au 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@urlyman @ajsadauskas @green Absolutely. I put it this way: we probably have enough in the way of consumer goods to last us the next 10 years. So let's stop buying new stuff - clothes, furnishings, tech gadgetry, hobby supplies, sports gear etc - for 10 years, while we wait for new technologies to get established and new infrastructure to be built. (Is 10 years enough to develop cargo-carrying airships?)

To manage the lack of employment, put the whole population on Universal Basic Income and limit working hours to 20 per week (with some obvious exceptions).

To enable repair of goods, outlaw practices like voiding warranties if repairs are made by someone other than the manufacturer. Provide incentives for people to set up small local repair businesses.

#climateSurvival #climateAdaptation

[–] nebulousmenace@clacks.link 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

@urlyman @ajsadauskas @green Most applications [not toasting bread, though] you need about 1/3 as much renewable as fossil, because final vs primary energy. So there's that.

[–] urlyman@mastodon.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@nebulousmenace @ajsadauskas @green I agree that for consumer end-use, renewable* power is waaay preferable to fossil-fuelled equivalents. But that’s just part of the problem.

We absolutely need them at scale to buy us time though.

*renewables are more properly thought of as re-buildables

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (63 replies)
[–] anne_twain@theblower.au 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@ajsadauskas @green I buy foods that have been produced as close as possible to my home. It's insane to buy milk from Queensland (3000 km away) when we have dairies here in Sth Australia.

Buying local often means buying what's in season locally and doing without for the rest of the year. This is also the cheapest way to buy fresh food.

While you're right that governments have the most power to make change, individuals can signal our willingness to make change without waiting for government.

#climateSurvival #climateAdaptation

[–] cdamian@rls.social 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

@anne_twain
It's complex though. Transport is usually a tiny fraction of the CO2 emissions of growing food.
Most of the time a sustainable business further away will be better than buying local.
@ajsadauskas @green

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] susankayequinn@wandering.shop 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@ajsadauskas @green Fossil fuel companies are terrified we'll work together to change what's socially acceptable—the rich will be shamed out of their yachts, EVs will be mainstream, local governments will outlaw housing gas hookups. They fight this propaganda & greenwashing (& "carbon footprint" rhetoric). The rich (people, countries) have a moral obligation to help the poor transition to a just, green economy... but we don't "wait around" for that to happen. We force it to happen by organizing.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] DarcMoughty@infosec.exchange 1 points 1 year ago

@ajsadauskas @green So, let's talk about what it would take to get the farming, processing, and transport of foods and other goods, along with the energy used in a home to come from renewables.

In that way, the Carbon Footprint isn't such a bad way to think about it, the same tool intended to make individuals feel responsible can open our eyes to the kinds of change needed far beyond our individual reach.

Do we need to modernize and electrify domestic goods transit? I think it's probably a good idea (and honestly, I think self-driving long-haul electric freight is a great idea, along with a high speed electric freight and passenger rail network).

Do we need existing fossil fuel power generator sites to host energy storage facilities? (That's where most of the transmission wires traverse, much better than asking people to install batteries in their basements)?

Do we need a 'space race' style government & private push to design and build electrified farm equipment and smart irrigation systems, which we can ultimately tie to the Farm Bill to switch our food producers over to electrified farming?

load more comments
view more: next ›