this post was submitted on 09 Jan 2025
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So you concede that social democrats are leftists?
Social Democrats support Capitalism with enlarged safety nets, they don't support Socialism. So, no.
You just said leftists support some form of socialism. According to the Wikipedia page, a social democracy is a social, economic, and political philosophy within socialism that supports political and economic democracy and a gradualist, reformist and democratic approach toward achieving limited socialism.
So social democrats have to be leftists then
No, not really. First of all, Wikipedia is not some holy text. Many Social Democrats consider themselves open to working towards a collectivized economy, but the facts remain that
Such a path has historically proven to be impossible
Such a definition of Socialism used on that Wikipedia page generally equates it to "Socialism is when the government does stuff."
So what is an acceptable level of socialism required for a government or ideology to be considered leftist in your view?
Also, don't you think the emphasis on public control over resources or greater economic equality in social democracies reflects some socialist principles, even if it’s not socialism in the Marxist sense?
Finally, even if social democracies don’t meet the Marxist criteria for socialism, wouldn’t you say that they represent a critique of capitalism and an attempt to address its contradictions, even if they don’t go far enough?
Good questions.
I don't think it makes sense to classify Socialism as a quantitative measure, but qualitative. If you recall from Politzer's work, there's really no such thing as a "pure" system, ergo when deciding if an ideology is Capitalist or Socialist we need to see what it does and what it works towards.
Social Democracy definitely borrows from Socialism and Socialists, certainly in aesthetics and many supporters genuinely believe in Reformism as a tactic (even if I personally think it obviously disproven at this point). However, the basis of Social Democracy is in not only maintaining markets (which are found in Socialist countries as well), but Bourgeois control and the present institutions formed in Bourgeois interests, such as the US 2 party system. Without doing anything to truly assert proletarian control over the economy and leaving the Bourgeoisie uncontested besides the "democratic" institutions they set up and approve of, I don't consider it truly Socialist.
In a way. If we are being serious, all ideologies are critiques of the present system in some way, even libertarian Capitalists believe in significant critiques of modern Capitalism. What matters more is the manner and character of the changes. In Social Democracy, even if adherents think social safety nets need to be expanded, they don't typically think we should work towards collectivization and public ownership, and wish to "harness Capitalism." In addition, the Nordic Countries many seek to replicate only exist via Imperialism, they fund their social safety nets largely through massive IMF loans and other high interest rate forms of exploiting the Global South. It's like if Chase Bank were a country.
Ok, so essentially a social democracy can be considered leftist if it seeks to overthrow bourgeois hegemony and shift power dynamics in favour of the working class over time is what I'm getting from this? Everything is relative.
On your second point, i agree that bourgeois institutions remain largely intact in social democracies, but what about historical examples like Sweden in the mid-20th century, where labor movements and socialist parties significantly shifted power dynamics in favor of the working class? Couldn’t social democracy, under certain conditions, be seen as a stepping stone toward proletarian control ergo making it leftist? At least if we're going by Politzer's view that there are no pure systems.
I also agree that the Nordic model has benefited from imperialism, but this same critique could be applied to the USSR as well who engaged in exploitative practices in its satellite states. Doesn’t this suggest that imperialism isn’t exclusive to capitalist systems, but rather a feature of powerful states under various ideologies?
Such a Social Democracy isn't Social Democracy anymore and becomes "Reformist Socialism," which is historically a failure and theoretically a failure.
Per Sweden, concessions came as a combination of strong labor organization internally, and a successful Socialist neighboring country to look towards. The ruling class made concessions, rather than risk losing control entirely. Such systems have eroded now that the USSR isn't there anymore, and to adopt Social Democratic tactics without such a neighboring Socialist State has not really worked out.
As for the USSR, it wasn't Imperialist. It did engage in widespread planning, and certain more populous regions recieved more support and development. However, this was not done for profit, and the goal remained widespread development. If you want to get into Leftist critique of Imperialism, Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism really is necessary reading to understand the basics. If you truly want to see Imperialism and how it evolved over time, a dense and academic but nonetheless fantastic resource is Hudson's Super Imperialism is great.
I'm not going to address your first claim, because I'm not aware of the context surrounding how reformist socialism is "a failure".
I'll skip to your last point and just say i disagree with your framing of the way things happened under the Soviet Union and you are once again defending the Soviet Union's failed practices to protect ideological purity. Imperialism isn't only done for profit y'know.
What about cases where resource transfers or forced economic realignments harmed satellite states? For instance, East Germany was heavily exploited post-WWII to pay reparations, which stifled its recovery for years. Wouldn’t the imposition of Soviet control and extraction of resources qualify as imperialist, even if it wasn’t driven by capitalist profit motives?
What about the Hungarian Revolution in 1956? The Soviets responded with military intervention killing thousands. This doesn't seem any different from what Putin's doing with Ukraine today.
These same satellite towns were also used as buffer zones to protect against Western aggression. The result? They were dragged into Cold War conflicts they had nothing to do with.
You can provide sources or that try to explain how these actions only served to contribute to development, but that doesn't take away the practical implications of these actions. I haven't even mentioned COMECON yet. The USSR was largely imperialist.
Reformist Socialism is disproven in theory by Rosa Luxemburg in Reform or Revolution and in practice by its lack of existence anywhere. The closest was Comrade Allende's Chile, who got couped within a couple years with US support.
As for Imperialism, it's important for you to actually understand what Marxists are talking about by referencing Imperialism. Marxists maintain this definition as a valid and useful one because it explains what it is, why it exists, and how to stop it. What you describe later is not the same as this process, you fold a bunch of different subjects in in a way that adds confusion, not clarity.
For the GDR? It made contextual sense, considering the Nazis intentionally waged a war of extermination and genocide against the Soviets, who desparately needed to revover. The US took advantage of Western Europe's weaker standing to essentially fold them into a subservient status in exchange for monetary support, while the Eastern Front saw 80% of the combat in the entirety of WWII. The scale of devastation of the Soviet Union by the Nazis cannot be understated.
For Hungary? Not sure why you are defending a US-supported fascist counterrevolution where literal Nazis were released from prison by pro-Nazi Hungarians in order to coup the Socialist system. I'll chalk it up to ignorance, as the idea of a state crushing a counterrevolution can certainly seem dystopian if you don't know who the "revolutionaries" are or what they wanted. One such leader was Béla Király, you should dig into that Wikipedia article a bit. They try to play down his support for the Nazi regime, of course, but it is what it is.
As for peripheral states being used as "buffers?" Doesn't hold water. The Cold War is a war of existence for Socialism, and destruction of Socialism for Capitalists. The Soviets repeatedly tried to deescalate, but the US pressed further and further. Listen to historian Dr. Michael Parenti's 1986 lecture on US/Soviet relations, if nothing else.
Overall, when you call the USSR "Imperialist," you do so by changing the meaning of the word, exaggerating its impact, and minimizing just how horrifying western Imperialism actually is that makes what you call "Soviet Imperialism" seem laughably kind. You distort it qualitatively and quantitatively because of what I presume to be a lack of research and an intentional desire to not research for fear of becoming sympathetic to Socialists.
And it's this kind of one-dimensional analysis of events that keeps me from taking you guys seriously. Like ok, i guess the main goal of all those university students and workers was to put into place a pro-Nazi government rather than advocacy for political reforms and economic autonomy. Yeah bud.
And yet Warsaw Pact countries were not allowed to pursue independent policies, even when those policies might have strengthened socialism locally. Hmm, what was that about internationalist solidarity again?
Again with this ad hominem. You are well aware of my willingness to acquiesce to defeat when i have been bested in a debate and of my willingness to research upon what i know not of. Your points aren't convincing enough and only serve to spread your propaganda in the hopes that you net some unaware working class individuals who don't know any better.
Genuine question, have you ever changed your stance on something on this platform?
It's not at all "one-dimensional." Counter-revolution frequently works by trying to organize an appearingly "leftist" revolution, but starting with US funding and fascist leadership. Genuinely, do you think the Nazi leading the anti-soviet counterrevolution had the best intentions at heart? Or that releasing Nazis from prison to help was a good thing for worker's rights? The same fascists that bound, tortured, and killed the Soviet supporters, prompting the Soviet Union to send in tanks? The same fascists that the peasantry entirely opposed? This was not a popular movement, it was an attempted fascist coup.
Yes, there were absolutely legitimate greivances with the Soviet system. To deny such would be absurd. However, this was not a legitimate revolution by any stretch.
As for the Warsaw pact countries, not sure what you mean by "not being allowed to pursue independent policies." They had local governments and their own jurisdictions.
As for your own reluctance to read anything that might change your mind, I know you read Elementary Principles of Philosophy. That's more than most can say. However, I also know you refused to read more than a couple sentences of "Tankies" out of some objection to the monstrocity of Churchill, who had this to say of the Chinese:
And this to say of the millions of Bengalis his policies starved to death:
Or this to say of Palestinians in his support of Zionism:
So yes, I do believe you fear sympathy for Socialists if you reflexively defend genocidal monsters like Churchill and avert your eyes from anything that brings that to light. Hopefully those quotations were enough to get my point across, but we can certainly keep going. Churchill was a demon in flesh.
As for my views? Many times. I used to consider myself more of an Anarchist, even denouncing the USSR to an extent I recognize now as counterfactual. You can go back to my earliest comments on this account if you want and see the evolution. What changed was that I bought an eReader and started reading again, including theory and history books, and went fact checking where I could. The fact that you haven't been able to change my mind doesn't weaken my willingness to change my mind about subjects.
I have also begun adhering to the notion "no investigation, no right to speak." I simply do not share any semi-formed opinions I may have if I have not investigated them enough to be truly confident in doing so.
I'll leave you with a quote from "Tankies:"
Warsaw Pact countries had local governments yes, but these governments were heavily subordinated to Moscow's interests. Policies were vetoed by the USSR, and attempts at independence were met with military intervention.
Fwiw, i did end up reading Tankies, and i came out more unconvinced than when i went in. I'm not denying that Churchill was racist and that his colonialist and imperialist actions were harmful, but it feels like you're trying to downplay the horridness of what the Soviets did when you bring up this stuff. This just runs into whataboutism and bad faith arguments.
Yes, the accomplishments of AES are indeed worth defending, but dismissing all criticisms as CIA propaganda (particularly when it comes to the CCP and Xi Jinping) or Trotskyist exaggerations oversimplifies history. Yes, the USSR’s role in aiding decolonization is admirable, but they still suppressed worker uprisings in its own sphere of influence. You can't just ask me to ignore this.
Socialist systems require cohesion and centralism, efforts at decentralization result in difficulties with maintaining effective economic planning. Unlike Capitalism, where competition is the goal, in Socialism cooperation is the focus. You'll have to actually dig into what was veto'd and why.
As for Soviets vs the Western Powers, I do not wish to downplay genuine failings by the Soviets. I wish simply to contextualize what has been exaggerated or twisted by the western powers, much of whose stories you repeat back originate with Goebbels. There's a clear difference between "whataboutism" and trying to explain that your repeated condemnations of the Soviet Union are not based on fact, but distortions. These distortions lead you into logical pretzels, like calling the Hungarian fascist-led riots a "worker revolution" despite being opposed by a majority of the workers.
What I am asking you to do is make a genuine effort to dig into the facts of the situations you believe yourself familiar with. Sticking with Hungary, how much research have you done? Have you only looked at anticommunist sources, or also pro-communist sources? Does the revelation that the riots were led by Nazis change your opinion of the actual character of the events, or not?
There's plenty I can and do criticize about the Soviets, and other AES states. Stalin, while being a committed Socialist, absolutely made errors and blunders, same with Mao. I'd say Castro and Ho Chi Minh ended up being some of the most consistently "correct," same with Deng Xiaoping. However, I understand that there has been a century of misinformation of the highest degree piled onto AES states, and this misinformation campaign exists to this day against modern Socialist states like China and Cuba.
Want some advice? Check out Dessalines's Socialism FAQ, click a country you want to learn about, and try to legitimately engage with the points that interest you. Try to poke holes in the sources, or see if other sources contradict. There is a massive effort by Western countries and media to deliberately propagandize against any form of Socialist countries, so any preconcieved notions you have are likely misleading at best or outright fabrications at worst.
To leave you with an amazing quote from Dr. Michael Parenti regarding this anticommunist framework, taken from Blackshirts and Reds:
Funny enough, Communists frequently just say "Parenti Quote" as shorthand for this, as it is that powerful and accurate.