this post was submitted on 01 Jan 2025
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Today I Learned (TIL)
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There's a climate catastrophe, did you notice? Largely its caused by burning fossil fuels and the animal industries.
Sustainable, and regenerative farming for the food supply is a cause I can get behind.
Locally sourced food is good for food independence and famine resistance. I'm on board.
I found this talk on sustainable ruminant agriculture fascinating https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmwobXCc4c
One of the biggest things we could change, is moving away from grain fed animals. Which frees up the fields making the grain, the fertilizer for the grain... get the animals back to eating pasture/grass. A cow can produce 5kg of milk solids (protein!!!) per day, just eating grass (which no human can eat anyway).. Animals eating their natural diet are much more sustainable for the planet. Not to mention 15% of the earths surface is range land, not suitable for crops, but suitable for ruminants. Cultivated land is only 4% of earths surface, from that 4% we have to get all of our plant based foods. 15% > 4% so animal food has a place in a sustainable food supply
Then there is the discussion of how effective different foods are, if you need to eat 3kg of plant based food to hit the minimum RDA vs 300g of animal based foods, even if the animal food has a higher footprint it has to be measured in the context of human impact. https://hackertalks.com/post/5606539
Most people are already eating a massively plant based diet, something like 80% of people's diets in the world comes from plants, and people, especially women, are woefully under eating their protein requirements!
Ahh Jagged circle down voted this, so I suspect they don't actually care about sustainability, and their objection is something else. Pity, we could have had a productive discussion.
You are not going to have a productive discussion with a militant vegan.
I doubt they are militant
In this sense:
militant (adjective): combative and aggressive in support of a political or social cause, and typically favoring extreme, violent, or confrontational methods
True, but they only expressed their dislike of meat in terms of sustainability.
It is possible to be healthy while vegan, about 20% of India is vegetarian. So 200m people. I'm sure some of them are doing ok.
I think, however, it's very difficult to do. Saying nobody should eat meat is a undefendable position (how many vegans have cats? Cats are obligate carnivores)
You are reading way too much into what I wrote.
I don't disagree with the ideas, I disagree with the self-righteousness and arrogance. Which seems to be extremely common among vegans.
The same can be said about feminists and abolitionists.
abolitionists and feminists fight against comparing slaves and women to animals.
Speciesism fuels racism and sexism.
veganism was invented in the 1940s. abolition and feminism didn't need veganism to make significant progress, and until the mid 20th century, none of them were vegan anyway.
it's hard for me to imagine that veganism is a necessary facet of any liberatory struggle.
People believed in animal rights for hundreds of years before 1944 think of the Jains and al-Ma'arri.
What we do to animals leads to human cruelty. The idea of controlling others and using them for our own purposes stems entirely from animal husbandry.
Jains don't believe in animal rights. I don't know the alma'arri, but I do know that it was mostly people advocating for their own full humanity that won them progress.
Now you’re just proving that you know less about this topic than you think you do. Jains almost completely refuse to eat animal products and they walk a certain way to prevent potentially harming microbes. They’ve have been advocating for animal rights for over 2500 years and were first ones to open animal shelters in India.
al-Ma'arri was a philosopher, he was regarded as the one the earliest animal advocates in history.
what are the enumerated rights Jains bestow upon animals? there are none.
Oh great more bad faith arguing.
your accusation of bad faith is, itself, bad faith.
Nah, I’m done arguing with you. I’m not wasting my time with a troll.
You’re on the block list now.
oh thank God.
calling me names doesn't change the facts
you can't prove this.
Taking away someone’s autonomy, forcing them to do things they don’t want to do, pushing them to have offspring, lying that someone who is different doesn’t feel pain, the stealing of babies, the forced labour, the in-humane conditions, the punching and kicking that’s involved with both family farms and factory farms, the the gassing of the victims, the slicing of someone’s throat.
this isn't proof. it's a hypothesis.
Doing these to animals makes it way easier to do it to people.
But you’re just sealioning at this point.
this is more hypothesizing. it's not proof of your claim.
your accusation of sealioning is also bad faith.
Now there's an utterly meaningless statement.
So the “self-righteousness and arrogance” was entirely projection.
Edit: You didn’t like the comparison because it made you realize your own hypocrisy.
Another completely meaningless statement. You're really on a roll!
Lemme guess.... vegan?
You’re deep into the speciesist bias.
Do you consider vegans to be different species? I often get that vibe from y'all: "We are the superior species and use our superior morality and intellect to rise far above ordinary animals".
You shouldn't put people on a pedestal. Vegans are just like you but with different values.
Rest assured, I ain't the one doing that. It only looks that way from up on your high horse.
The "correct" values, according to vegans.
You're assuming a lot. You're acting weirdly hostile.
Also the high horse phrase doesn't work on vegans as we do not ride horses.
I do not want to talk to someone so hateful.
You are assuming a lot.
Most of the pollution comes from the ships doesn't it? Not that it stilloant a very efficient way to transport stuff but all this talk of cars when the shipping industry is far larger.
No. I think the animal industry is about half when you measure in carbon equivalent units. Some greenhouse gasses (eg methane) are way worse than carbon dioxide per ton, so you have to convert it to co2 equivalent to see the big picture.