this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2024
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[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 18 points 2 days ago (10 children)

The fall of the roman empire was a great thing for many people who didn't get to lament their woes on a medium that could survive the centuries.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (9 children)

"God I love rampant brigandry and not having clean water. Oh, if only trade routes would shut down and feudalism would grow from the ashes of our society! It's really too bad that ethnic supremacist polities didn't rule over my people sooner, I love being excluded from legal protections due to an insufficiently pure bloodline."

The decline and fall of the Roman Empire was fucking horrible for normal people, and it's bizarre to me that people think otherwise.

I apologize if this comes off as tetchy. I'm in an ill mood today.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Do you consider "slaves" as "normal people"?

[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 day ago

Bonded servitude (the superset of slavery) has been a universal thing throughout civilization, even though we have been dreaming of non-stratified societies at least since the enlightenment, and the occasional heretic / blasphemer / impious philosopher since the classical age.

So when we talk about peonage (bonded servants) in civilizations, we compare like to like, say slaves as they were regarded under Roman law vs. serfs during the middle ages. It's messy. We don't have slaves officially in the modern United States, but we do have forced prison labor (which we treat worse than Roman slaves) and we have child labor and immigrant labor, but these are thanks to blind spots in law and enforcement... but that means we have blind spots in law and enforcement were atrocity can (and often does) hide.

So slaves were better off in the Roman age than they were, say, during the Sugar plantation age here in the Americas. Peasants in the middle age had more rights but were just as bonded, and modern court systems emerged because letting the local lord adjudicate based on his gut feeling (oft while he was inebriated) resulted often in miscarriage of justice.

In the meantime, yes, we still fantasize about creating a system in which the lowest laborers can actually enjoy their work, and don't have to worry about precarity of food, housing, health, etc. We're totally not there yet and should be further along than we are.

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