this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
317 points (81.6% liked)
Asklemmy
43917 readers
1092 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Remember that in online spaces (and IRL in reality), there are astro-turf/sock puppet accounts that will make claims to sway public opinions.
Good point. Although, I would question whether Lemmy is such a place as we really don’t have the numbers to warrant the effort, imo.
We get drug spam and stock spam, no reason to expect that political spam is any less likely.
Lemmy has a huge amount of hardcore lefty's. If you can get them to not vote, and especially if you can get them to tell their friends not to vote, that is a big win.
Astroturfing/sockpuppeting is dirty cheap to do, so no reason not to try.
You do see some users here that will post continously on about a certain topic repeatedly, with no other opinions. They might be legit, but I have my suspicions.
"Hardcore lefties" have a very different understanding of the value of their vote, which is to say, it means very little.
Have you deigned to ask them questions?
It is not currently such a place. I’ve yet to hear a Lemmy admin say otherwise.
Edit to add: Russiagate conspiracy theorists want it to be true so they can simply dismiss voices that contradict their beliefs.
I've seen cryptospam, drugspam, generic adspam on here. Why would a political astroturfspam be a conspiracy theory?
It does exist. It just doesn’t currently exist here, and Russian/Chinese/Iranian bots 1) hardly exist at all and 2) so far have had virtually no effect.
The reason people are seeing
$evil_countrybots everywhere is because our own government and our own corporate media tell us they are everywhere, not because they are everywhere. The propaganda is coming from inside the house. They’ve spent the last seven years and who knows how much money trying to convince us of. They’re trying to manufacture our consent to censorship.They tell us what opinions are
$evil_dictatortalking points so we know what opinions to dismiss out of hand, and to see the people & organizations that express those opinions as malevolent foreign agents, so we never listen to them again. They’re training us to do some of the censoring for them.The first step is to understand the media and propaganda.
I linked upthread about this specific propaganda campaign, but since people don’t click links, I’ll copypasta myself.
I disagree - it feels like Lemmy is seeing the same kind of shills that 4chan saw in the last several elections. These bad actors are trying to sway dems to vote third party or not vote at all "in protest" across many small and large online spaces.
Are the shills in the room with us right now?
Yes, in fact I see one now.
Interesting. What am I shilling for? What are my real opinions? What are the fake ones I'm presenting?
Your real opinions are the ones I like, and your fake opinions are the ones I don’t. It’s not rocket surgery.
Obviously a huge genocide isn't enough for you - you clearly want Every Palestinian to be killed or imprisoned when Trump is elected. And not just the ones in Gaza, if I were a Palestinian in the US, I'd be terrified of that madman winning, and I'd do everything I could to support Harris like my life depended on it (because it very well might)
More generally you are trying to convince us that the genocide is the only important issue in the world, and that it's somehow worth not supporting someone who is in all ways (not just all other) the far better of the two electable candidates.
Please do your best to act in good faith and not lie about me.
No, that is what you, a non-Palestinian, believe you get to decide for Palestinians, people who have lost half or more of their family in the last year. The Palestinian diaspira, generally speaking, rejects Biden and Harris.
However, you have not answered my questions.
Now you are downplaying the magnitude of genocide. Never again means never again for anyone, not just when it is politically convenient for you.
Welp, looks like you didn't answer my questions. Maybe next time, right?
To be lies or even bad faith, I'd have to not actually believe what I wrote. And I very much believe what I wrote.
Do they now? (A small sample. Some of those are about the ones still in Gaza, but I don't think that detracts from the point.)
Fine. Here are your questions and my genuine answers.
I think you are likely a shill for Donald Trump. I don't assume it's directly, as in I don't assume you are being paid by the GOP or a super PAC, but wouldn't be surprised if someone was paying you.
Hard to say. At best (unlikely) I think you have been very strongly misled into thinking that's somehow what's best for the country, or even the world. Otherwise I think you know fully what you are doing and the damage it may cause and you are fine with that. This is what I believe based on the comments I've seen from you.
That you care about the genocide. I think you are using it as a wedge to try to divide and mute the Democrat vote.
Not at all. That was the first thing I addressed: if Harris loses it will be so much worse in Gaza and elsewhere.
Given that you simply made up some bullshit, telling me that you actually really believe it would mean you have basically no grasp on reality. You can't tell the difference between your imagination and what's real, allegedly.
Personally, I think you do know the difference.
A handful of somewhat misleadingly presented quotes from people selected through an unstated process. Literally no context for who most of them are. Many if the quotes have little to do with what you are talkjng about. And then a series of unsourced narratives about what people are thinking.
This is an incoherent read that follows a particular propaganda style but mostly comes across as incompetent.
"An informal canvasing in Gaza".
This follows the same style but by a more competent writer. It is timed for the "honeymoon" period PR push for Harris.
Democrats organized a letter from a handful of people, some of which were Pslestinian Americans. Amazing. The article does not even link the letter. Here is the link. Note that they included "Progressive Democrats" and "Community Leaders". Perhaps you are unfamiliar with tokenizing PR strategies. If you look into the signatories, you will find an array of Democratic Party functionaries either working for the Party itself, an elected official of the party, or someone at the top of a Democratic Party - associated NGO. Far from a representation of community, this is the usual suspects in a PR push from party formations. They do this for all kinds of things.
It is like this is your first time learning about journalism and PR.
Ahahahahahaha
Then by definition I am not a shill.
I work against the genocide and have for over a year, doing organizing work. Folks like yourself have been excysing and normalizing genocide because your team is doing it.
So, wrong on all counts. Damn, did you know that words mean things and pulling things out of your as isn't knowledge?
You did literally diwnplay the genocide, trying to say it is just one issue among many and that I'm being silly to make such a big deal out of it.
Begone, liar for genocide.
I could very well be wrong about you, but I was led there by the evidence of your comments. Don't want to be thought of as a shill, then don't act like one.
Eh. I don't usually involve myself with threads like this, so I am indeed much less experienced arguing them and finding good sources. It's certainly not my job. Anyway, this was in response to you saying that the Palestinians 'generally' disregard Biden/Harris, I think that is still questionable. And even if the majority do, way over half the US is failing to vote for their own interests (because non-voting counts) so that unfortunately would not be too surprising.
Nice comeback.
You think my inability to know what you Really believe (as opposed to what you write) makes you not a shill? Sorry, I'm not able to follow that logic.
My team is not great on this count, but the other team (and yes there are only two this election) is so much worse that's it's not even funny.
Trying to convince people to not vote for the only candidate that has a very slight chance of not supporting Israel as much really bothers me. It's not ideal, but there is no better example I've seen of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
Same.
Faced with a contradiction, did you decide to address it? Nah, just repeat yourself, that will work.
I hope that you someday have the courage of your convictions.
Right you posted some bullshit and clearly did zero media criticism. Is this your way of acknowledging what I criticized? Do you see my point in my responses? What do you think about articles that just provide you a few quotes without rhyme or reason (except that supports a narrative implicitly), and then tell you the narrative to support? Do you think party-associated NGOs are representative of the people?
I helped turn out more Palestinians to act action from weeks ago than there are people on that last list.
The term I used was reject. They are very aware of the Biden-Harris regimes genocide of their people. They do not disregard the murderers of their families.
You obviously have zero familia with this topic. We both know you hastily Googled your three links. I wonder if you even read them. Instead of making guesses and believing them and then fighting poplee to defend, why don'tyou get involved with some local anti-genoxide groups? Or at least just be honest. Remember, you actually started this topic by saying most support Harris, which was clearly pulled out of your ass.
The most defining aspect of US voters is that they routinely vote against their own interests. They are awash in a sea of propaganda and PR and false consciousness that scapegoats immigrants for problems created by CEOs and the economic system.
You can't ask me to take what you said seriously.
I think you don't know what a shill is. Look it up. It is not "someone that advocates for something". It is a person that pretends to believe or push something they don't so that they can push something else.
I am obviously sharing my opinions and honestly advocating consistently for my position. Comoare this to your evasiveness and doubling down in things you made up on the spot.
There is no worse than genocide. And your team has been excellent at excusing and normalizing it, such as what you are doing right now in your attempt to attack me for rejecting your genocide. If Trump were in office I would probably see you in the street. Because Biden is in office, you are here defending it.
Yeah duh that is why you are lying about me. You have been scratched by the prospect that someone would doubt your lesser-evil-for-genocide position that has given you license to support these monsters and harass those who don't.
Your lesser evil logic is self-defeating and irrational. Given that you have spent so little time critically evaluating it, I expect you to adopt an anti-genocide stance until you are politically literate just like you would if your family was facing these crimes.
Never again means never again for anyone. It is happening now. Are you going to fight it or support it?
Genocide is not good. Do I need to explain this to you?
I don't lie. "I'm rubber you're glue" doesn't work when only one of us is acting like this.
It's literally the worst crime in the world.
Davidgro out here trying to minimize the literal worst crime in the world for political reasons.
I agree. Genocide is the worst crime in the world.
Which is why I voted for Kamala Harris, to help keep Donald Trump from winning.
Do you disagree with my choice? If so, how would you vote in the US presidential election of 2024 to minimize the genocide in Gaza?
Genocide is currently happening with the full support and speed of the US government.
Without resorting to platitudes, or general statements, what specific actions do you think Biden is taking to limit things?
Without resorting to platitudes, or general statements, what specific actions do you think Trump will take that will worsen the already existing systemic rape, torture, and murder of the Palestinian people?
There is no harm minimization for genocide.
People that believe there is have forgotten all historical lessons.
Please read this Nazi Era poem and consider its meaning:
Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. The absurdity here is believing someone willing to commit genocide against others will protect whatever out group you want to protect that you believe (probably accurately) Trump will go after.
The battle against fascism has already been lost. There is no reform possible from within to fix it.
So all hope is lost and we should just give up and let the full direct fascist win. Got it.
Real late reply, but Kamala is a direct fascist.
takes no effort with modern technology