I've kind of given up on having any sort of nuance here. Most people in the west think that Russia just randomly invaded Ukraine because they're evil orcs and there's nothing you can say to change that. It's easier to point out that their strategy is ultimately self destructive and hurts them more than it does Russia.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Maybe. It's not even an nuance at this point. I just get downvoted for stating the dryest, most easily checkable fact, while in the other threads we see things like complete reality denial get pushed.

I do think that it's pretty important fact though. That the war was started by the maidan coup regime murdering people in Donbas who didn't even wanted to join Russia or be independent at first, they just wanted to not be shock therapied, treated as the second class citizens or murdered like the people in Odessa.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Oh yeah I completely agree, I made a lengthy post that provides some context a little while back. I'm just kind of tired of having to repeat that over and over when people clearly have no interest to engage with reality.

[–] Sh3Rm4n@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

But what should this context tell us? At the very least this is in no way any justification for russia starting a war against the whole Ukraine.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

At the very least it's clear that there were plenty of off ramps that could have avoided the war. Russia tried to find diplomatic solutions for eight years while both the west and their puppet regime in Ukraine refused.

Furthermore, the war is directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia where NATO recognized the independence of breakaway regions, then had them invite NATO for support on the pretext of genocide, and ran referendums for the regions to separate. Russia is just following the precedent established by the west here.

[–] Sh3Rm4n@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Russia tried to find diplomatic solutions for eight years while both the west and their puppet regime in Ukraine refused.

Not only Russia tried that. The USA, France Germany and most importantly Ukraine tried it as well. No one wanted that war to start (well Russia apparently eventually chose to do so anyway)

Furthermore, the war is directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia

"directly? I'm pretty sure that this is not true even though those things do look familiar on the surface. This is definitely an argument Russia is using why they started the war. But one wrong doing of NATO does not in any way justify a wrongdoing of Russia.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Not only Russia tried that. The USA, France Germany and most importantly Ukraine tried it as well. No one wanted that war to start (well Russia apparently eventually chose to do so anyway)

That is a lie. The west actively encouraged Ukraine to be belligerent. Ukraine failed to implement Minsk protocols for 8 years.

"directly? I’m pretty sure that this is not true even though those things do look familiar on the surface. This is definitely an argument Russia is using why they started the war. But one wrong doing of NATO does not in any way justify a wrongdoing of Russia.

Yes, directly. I'm going to guess that you have no clue regarding how NATO invaded Yugoslavia if you think these things are only similar on the surface. And this isn't just one wrong. It's been the continued policy of NATO to invade countries and encircle Russia. That's the threat that Russia responded to. NATO expansion was the root cause of this war.