this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024
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Again, Putin is the only one who can guatanteed end this. You ignore that.
The west abandoning Ukraine in no way guarantees that Russia stops killing Ukrainians, or Ukrainians stop killing Russians.
Is it likely that Ukraine capitulates without Western support? Yes. Is it likely to happen the next day? No. Id it guaranteed to happen at all? No.
Is it likely that Russia stops killing Ukrainians? Yes. Is it likely to stop the next day? No.
The only person who can end this within a day, Putin, chooses not to, and instead chooses the deaths of millions.
You keep mentioning how the west could end this, but are completely silent about the fact that so could Putin, and with much less bloodshed.
I've addressed this repeatedly, and you're the one ignoring what you're being told because it doesn't fit with your narrative.
Ensuring that more Ukrainians die without changing the outcome of the war is not helping Ukrainians.
You keep repeating this, but it's a blatantly false statement as we both know.
Both Russia and the west have exact same power to stop the war immediately. Russia has repeatedly made proposals to stop the war that the west rejected. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this shows that you're not arguing in good faith.
You are contradicting yourself. Can russia stop the war immediately, or do they need the permission of the west to do so? Both can't be true simultaneously
I'm not contradicting myself. The west can stop the war immediately, and Ukraine needs permission from the west to do so. This is a proxy war between NATO and Russia where NATO is using Ukraine to do the fighting.
I asked about Russia, not Ukraine.
Can Russia end the war immediately, or does Russia need the permission of the west to do so?
Here's the chief of NATO openly admitting why the war started, but you keep on lying here if that makes you feel better.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm
That has literally nothing to do with what I just wrote? I said nothing about the reason for the war.
Again, can Russia end the war immediately, ss you claimed, or do they need permission from the west, like you also claimed?
You are claiming that the war is between Russia and Ukraine, while the reality, as Stoltenberg admits is that it's a war between Russia and NATO. Ukraine is the party that needs permission from the west to stop the war.
Can you explain to me why Russia would stop the war that Russia is currently winning?
You are avoiding my question. Can Russia end the war immediately, or do they need permission from the west? Yes or no. If you do not answer, I will just assume thst you agree with me that Russia can end the war unilaterally, and Putin chooses not to (because he chooses not to, as "winning" is more important thsn millions of lives).
You are avoiding my question. Why would Russia end the war that Russia is winning?
To avoid the death of millions of Russians and Ukrainians. I've answered multiple times.
So, now we agree that Russia could end the war immediately, regardless of what the west does, but chooses not to, leading to the death of millions of Russians and Ukrainians.
The actual losses for Russia amount to around 57k as a western source that shows its methodology reports. So, not sure where these millions are coming from https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng
Meanwhile, nowhere did I say that Russia can't stop the war. What I said is that it makes absolutely no sense for Russia to do that. The war started because of NATO expansion eastwards as Stoltenberg has openly admitted. If Russia stops the war, then NATO will just continue doing what it was doing previously in Ukraine. All the effort and all the lives lost will have been for nothing. Russia has to win this war decisively.
Also, you keep talking about Putin as if he runs the country in dictatorial fashion. That is a perspective divorced from reality. At this point vast majority of people in Russia support the war because they now understand that the west is their enemy. They saw western reaction towards Russians after the war started, and they can plainly see now that the west viscerally hates Russians. Putin is considered a moderate, and the main criticism of Putin in Russia today is that he's being too cautious and not showing enough force.
What will happen in the end is that Russia will win and dictate terms, the only question is how many more people have to die before westerners accept that.
You answered yourself where the millions come from.
You agree that Putin could stop the war, but can not see why it would make sense to not kill millions. That requires a particular disregard for life typical of Russia, and then russians act surprised when people hate them.
I didn't, if you look at the link provided, Russian casualties have actually been going down. Apparently you don't have a first clue regarding the subject you're attempting to debate here. Let me explain a few basics to you. Most of the casualties in this war (around 80%) come from artillery fire, and Russia outguns Ukraine by a factor of around 10 to 1. Ukraine has at this point run through much of its professional army that was motivated and well trained, they're now increasingly relying on conscripts with little training, and no motivation to fight. As the professional and motivated core of the army continues to shrink, an inflection point comes where the whole army starts to collapse. This is what happened to Germans at the end of WW2. This is what's already starting to happen in Ukraine now. Armies don't fight to the last man, once the collapse starts, it progresses very rapidly where the cohesion of the army falls apart.
Also, I notice you have problems with reading comprehension. Because I told you the opposite. Putin can't in fact stop the war because that would be an incredibly unpopular move politically in Russia.
I've been explaining the same thing to you over and over in many different ways here. All you do is just keep regurgitating the same few points you've memorized. You're not engaging in any actual discussion here, so I'm going to stop. Feel free to believe whatever you like, but I do hope that once the war ends you'll do some self reflection and ask yourself what was achieved by prolonging the conflict.
If we go back to the actual article, and the sources it cites, it looks like the will to fight is still there, so what you say does not appear to be true.
Perhaps you care to provide sources to the contrary?
Similarly, you say Putin can't stop the war, because he is afraid of the Russian people. Is it not also true that stopping the war is incredibly unpopular in the west too? Is Putin as weak as the western leaders? I thought he had massive support from the population and that the people respects his opinion?
Of your entire understanding of the conflict is based on a single article then I see where you're coming from.
It isn't, and I did not say so. But I'll go ahead and use the same logic as you, and conclude that your understanding of the war is not based on any information at all, since you have not mentioned a single source so far.
Conclude whatever you like.